Severe Winter Driving Concerns with AWD Model 3

[SanJuan]

Recently I had the opportunity to drive on severe (polished ice) road conditions in southwest colorado with my M3 AWD with 19in all season continental tires. To my dismay the M3 fish-tailed significantly once i let up on the accelerator and regen braking kicked in. Battery was mostly warmed up so I had about 80% of reg braking capability and traveling about 30mph on level and sloping roads. Traveling on snow covered roads which provides a bit more traction I have not experienced this issue.

The fish-tailing suggested to me that the rear motor did the braking and front motor did nothing. I have a MX as well with Michelin X-ice mountain snowflake rated snow tires and the MX is very stable in severe winter driving conditions. During regen braking the car slows straight with no fish-tailing. Two years ago I did have the opportunity to drive my MX on severe ice condiitions with the 20in all season cont tires and the car was stable but i was a bit more conservative with my driving dynamics.

So I am wondering if the M3 AWD driving dynamics needs a Software tweak? Seems that the rear motor does most of the work and this is an issue in winter driving scenarios on snow and ice.

Does anyone else have similar experiences? Especially since this is the first winter M3 AWD owners are getting some real live experience on snow and Ice.

 

[coleAK]

I’ve been driving on a lot of solid ice since October in Alaska. Was Regen on low? Chill mode? I wrote of my thoughts and on slick surfaces on a thread “winter driving thoughts so far”. I’m running Nokian Hakka 9’s on my AWD 3. I can not get it to oversteer even if I try. It will understeer though. What I have found is the traction control works pretty well. The only thing I can say negative is the car it is is powerful even in Chill.

First off Regen low and chill is where it needs to be all winter. Second you can’t make a fair comparison to a car running all seasons to a car with winter tires, especially on ice. To summarize the problems you experienced are due to your tires not the car.

 

[Thp3]

I concur, Chill for driving mode and Low on regen all winter. With regular for regen, the car misbehaves when you need it to smoothly slow down.

Next year I get a set of four snow tires. For now I’m extra careful (7 car lengths behind anyone) and often just decide to not drive in the lake effect snow.

 

[Big Earl]

Polished ice and all-season tires are a sketchy combination.

 

[StealthP3D]

So I am wondering if the M3 AWD driving dynamics needs a Software tweak? Seems that the rear motor does most of the work and this is an issue in winter driving scenarios on snow and ice.

The AWD Model 3 and it's super sensitive and smart electronic driver aides is the best thing for slick roads since winter tires. As a lifelong powder hound I've driven through far more than my share of severe winter weather (I love it) and I've never driven a car that handles better in the snow and ice. The electronic driver aids even let you have a good amount of fun unlike most modern cars. Under hard acceleration on a low traction snow covered road the aids are tuned loosly enough to allow the car to do extended drifts. Not completely crossed up, they let the nose point to the inside of the corner so you can steer with the throttle. It's very solid and stable.

 

[cbutters]

I had a chance this week to get used to model 3 snow driving. Enable low-regen and/or modulate the throttle gently when letting off... You can still decelerate from your current speed while mildly holding the pedal letting it off slowly. When you think about it; sudden regen is the same thing as sudden acceleration when simply considering the physics between tires and the road; and you wouldn't use sudden acceleration on black ice. Driving a regen car in snow does take retraining the brain a bit though.
That said I've found I can do just fine even leaving sport mode on and normal regen settings if I am careful with modulating that pedal both when accelerating AND decelerating.

 

[mswlogo]

You are on 19" Skies, what do you expect? You said yourself your X is on X-Ice and fine.
I think you know the answer.
You can't compare what happened 2 years ago on different car, different tires, different situation. Every situation on Ice is unique.

 

[IdaX]

Go with winter tires -- studded ones if you encounter these type of conditions often...

 

[run-the-joules]

You're comparing X-Ice winter tires with mediocre all seasons, in the snow and ice? This is 10000000% expected outcome.

All season tires only do one thing in all seasons: Suck. Get winter tires.

 

[StealthP3D]

Go with winter tires -- studded ones if you encounter these type of conditions often...

I think the Model 3 has such sensitive traction and stability controls, and reacts so quickly to the smallest slip it deems a potential problem, that studded tires are not necessary under ordinary icy situations. Unless maybe you are a belt and suspenders type of guy. Which I tend towards but I also know how to manage very slippery conditions. The car is simply stellar at managing what little traction it has. It's not heavy handed like other modern ICE cars, it's so delicate it makes it work. Modern winter tires have enough grip on ice that studs would only be necessary on unusually steep and icy surfaces. In other words, the Model 3 is the last car I would ever want studs on. And I always run winter tires in winter conditions (going on 25 years).

The problem with studded tires is that they can't use the same rubber compounds as studless winter tires (they need a rubber compound that is hard and strong enough to retain the studs). A good studless winter tire uses a really soft rubber compound. This means on certain types of snow studs actually have LESS traction than a good studless tire. And the same holds true as the studs wear down and get rounded edges. When studs are new they are superior, on hard, compact snow/ice they offer noticably superior traction. As they wear down and become rounded, the situation can reverse. If you drive on clear pavement at freeways speeds, they wear out much faster than a good studless will in the same conditions. They wear especially quickly when driving hard on twisty wet roads. I avoid them because they force me to drive like grandma in those conditions if I want them to last. There aren't many places in this world where you don't see bare pavement much of the winter.If it's cold and dry the snow just blows away (or sublimes) and gets abraded by all the traffic and then you have bare pavement again. With the advent of studless tires with good ice capabilities, studs are pretty much relegated to an extremely special purpose tire. And the superior low traction capabilities of the Model 3 make that even more true.

Having said all that, modern studded tires use special designs which extend the life of the studs somewhat. But there is only so much they can do.

 

[run-the-joules]

I think the Model 3 has such sensitive traction and stability controls, and reacts so quickly to the smallest slip it deems a potential problem, that studded tires are not necessary under ordinary icy situations. Unless maybe you are a belt and suspenders type of guy. Which I tend towards but I also know how to manage very slippery conditions. The car is simply stellar at managing what little traction it has. It's not heavy handed like other modern ICE cars, it's so delicate it makes it work. Modern winter tires have enough grip on ice that studs would only be necessary on unusually steep and icy surfaces. In other words, the Model 3 is the last car I would ever want studs on. And I always run winter tires in winter conditions (going on 25 years).

The problem with studded tires is that they can't use the same rubber compounds as studless winter tires (they need a rubber compound that is hard and strong enough to retain the studs). A good studless winter tire uses a really soft rubber compound. This means on certain types of snow studs actually have LESS traction than a good studless tire. And the same holds true as the studs wear down and get rounded edges. When studs are new they are superior, on hard, compact snow/ice they offer noticably superior traction. As they wear down and become rounded, the situation can reverse. If you drive on clear pavement at freeways speeds, they wear out much faster than a good studless will in the same conditions. They wear especially quickly when driving hard on twisty wet roads. I avoid them because they force me to drive like grandma in those conditions if I want them to last. There aren't many places in this world where you don't see bare pavement much of the winter.If it's cold and dry the snow just blows away (or sublimes) and gets abraded by all the traffic and then you have bare pavement again. With the advent of studless tires with good ice capabilities, studs are pretty much relegated to an extremely special purpose tire. And the superior low traction capabilities of the Model 3 make that even more true.

Having said all that, modern studded tires use special designs which extend the life of the studs somewhat. But there is only so much they can do.

The traction and stability controls will help you go on the snow and ice. They will not do crap you help you stop. But yes, good modern actual winter tires are still very good

 

[IdaX]

In other words, the Model 3 is the last car I would ever want studs on.

They wear especially quickly when driving hard on twisty wet roads.

I rolled a car on black ice 10 years ago, and since then I consider the faster-wearing studs to just be part of the cost of not being dead.

 

[StealthP3D]

I rolled a car on black ice 10 years ago, and since then I consider the faster-wearing studs to just be part of the cost of not being dead.

Did you have winter tires on when you rolled your vehicle?

 

[coleAK]

First week in October we had 28 degrees and rain on snow packed roads which lead to 2-3” of solid clear ice. I watched an A4 going up hillside here in Anchorage lose traction and go backwards back down the hill with his tires going forward... He was on 2nd winter Blizzak’s. I gave him and his daughter a ride home in the 3 with my studded Hakka 9’s.

Yes you are correct that not all studded tires are “better” I had a set of studded Hankook iPikes that were included with my winter wheels when I bought my LX570. They were terrable, and many AT truck tires are studdable. Nokian use carbide studs. I’m on my 7th winter on Hakka 5’s on our 4Matic E class. Still stellar traction/breaking, better than the model 3 in some conditions.

Just look at Nokian, their premier winter tire is the Hakka 9. On our road conditions here in central Alaska I will bet my studded Hakka 9’s aganst and studless tire any day. My friend owns the largest tire shop in Alaska. They sell studded Hakkapeleta 9:1 to studless Hakka R3’s.

The last thing I’ll say is when they run the ice races up on Big Lake the only vehicle class not required to have a roll cage is production studless winter. The only modification outside of OEM equipment allowed in production vehicle studded tires is a roll cage. Why is that? Because the production vehicles with studded tires run the course a lot faster.

And yes I don’t typically see much bare pavement late October -> May

 

[Uncle Paul]

Question: My car fishtails when I suddenly lift off the acceleration due to regeneration.

Answer: Don't lift your foot off suddenly on low traction surfaces.

ICE vehicles have the same issues with manual transmissions in their lower gears. You learn to feather off the gas instead of abruptly lifting.

As others have said, in low traction conditions either feather off the throttle or turn down regeneration.

Your Model 3 has different motors and controllers than in your X. The X has the same style motors front and back, while your Model 3 has two different types of motors front and back.

Gotta be careful out there.

 

[ℬête Noire]

You're comparing X-Ice winter tires with mediocre all seasons, in the snow and ice? This is 10000000% expected outcome.

All season tires only do one thing in all seasons: Suck. Get winter tires.

I'm a lot bigger on all seasons than most people (including run-the-joules above here), I've found them a decent compromise for a specific band of climate. However absolutely this jumped out at me reading your post. There is going to be a huge difference when you're on ice like that (assuming the ice conditions were the same to start with, because there's lot of potential variance there). All-seasons beat summers here, so they'll sorta do in a pitch if you get caught on season/weather transitions, but you definitely should not be relying on them for anything better than that and you definitely should have the regen turned down w/speed of travel and other driving style aspects adjusted accordingly.

 

[IdaX]

Did you have winter tires on when you rolled your vehicle?

I did not; I'm overreacting to that mistake by going over to the studs

 

[Canuck]

Polished ice and all-season tires are a sketchy combination.

Yes, and I've driven on them in a truck, car, tahoe hybrid, Tesla, with different types of winter tires. They all handle differently. That's the point of the OP starting this thread, given his concern with how his 3 was handling it.

I read a good road sign: Accidents happen. Your speed determines the outcome.

Good to keep in mind, especially on slippery roads.

 

[clostridium]

I’ve been driving on a lot of solid ice since October in Alaska. Was Regen on low? Chill mode? I wrote of my thoughts and on slick surfaces on a thread “winter driving thoughts so far”. I’m running Nokian Hakka 9’s on my AWD 3. I can not get it to oversteer even if I try. It will understeer though. What I have found is the traction control works pretty well. The only thing I can say negative is the car it is is powerful even in Chill.

First off Regen low and chill is where it needs to be all winter. Second you can’t make a fair comparison to a car running all seasons to a car with winter tires, especially on ice. To summarize the problems you experienced are due to your tires not the car.

I created a driver profile called "Snow" that has the regen on low and chill for acceleration.

I want to concur with the people on this thread who have pointed out the importance of good winter tires. I didn't really take that seriously until I had a minor crash in slippery conditions in cold weather and started doing research. Good winter tires will help you even without lots of snow and are a worth investment. The additional cost is often just what the wheels you get cost because you are avoiding wear on your non-winter tires. And the cost of one crash makes up for the cost of the wheels.

 

[CCIE]

As others have said, winter tires make a world of difference. Everything I’ve read, including tests done by tire rack, says that studs are more trouble that they’re worth these days. Modern rubber formulations and tread design tend to outperform studs in most winter situations.