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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2014

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Since "valuation" seems to be the only thing shorts are now clinging to, can anyone provide some good counter arguments?

I personally think valuation is sort of a gimmick but unfortunately my opinion doesn't really hold much merit..

Too often the cart is put before the horse. Simply stated, an analyst should attempt to estimate what people will be willing to pay for a stock in the coming months and years. A simple valuation model should not be construed by investors as telling them what they should be paying.

Too often these models are what the analyst learned in college. Usually that is purely fundamental analysis but occasionally technical. They can be reasonable tools for judging the value of long established companies. The fundamentals are usually based on recent conditions and expectations for the following year.

Evaluating an innovative upstart that is disrupting established industries and could one day dominate its peers requires a lot of anecdotal research and intuitive understanding of the people and processes driving the business and its market. A great many analysts are not up to that, yet their followers accept the simplistic analyses as gospel. Not understanding this can be the downfall of many investors, especially those who sell short when a stock like TSLA is deemed overvalued by the traditional metrics.
 
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Was andrea james on CNBC today? I want her to be my girlfriend.

To answer my own question, YES! Here she is.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000245235

second edit: i can't get my own link to work. Anyone get it to work?

I could not get it to work either, but searching for the video led me back to this one, from July 2013:

Andrea James defends her $200 price target for TSLA.

In terms of educated prognostication, she was pretty good, if I do say so myself...

Given all that has happened since, I would love to hear her current thoughts about the company / stock.
 
I could not get it to work either, but searching for the video led me back to this one, from July 2013:

Andrea James defends her $200 price target for TSLA.

In terms of educated prognostication, she was pretty good, if I do say so myself...

Given all that has happened since, I would love to hear her current thoughts about the company / stock.

There is in: Twitter / AndreaSJames: Thanks for having me on today, ...

Short link:
Buy Tesla car not the stock: Pro - CNBC

Takes a while for it to load...
 
BTW, Model X reservations just went past 11,000. Even though the markets won't be watching that yet it's perhaps worth noting for your projections.

I wonder to what extend Model X reservations are linked to the stock price. I can speak for myself, I need $250 level to be able to buy the car, which looks like a good chance it will reach that by next year. If more people are thinking like me, we may have a nice virtuous circle:

-> stock goes up -> more people reserve Model X -> more revenue for Tesla -> stock goes up more ... etc.
 

I think Andrea went from a humble analyst to a VP at her firm (or is it partner?) from her TSLA fame. Is this the norm in the industry. One correct gutsy call and you are set for life. It reminded me of Meredith Whitney's Cith bank prediction.

She reminds me of a hippie friend of mine... but who had a chance to climb wallstreet. Glad to see the transformation.
 
Since "valuation" seems to be the only thing shorts are now clinging to, can anyone provide some good counter arguments?

I personally think valuation is sort of a gimmick but unfortunately my opinion doesn't really hold much merit..

Cameron, I invested in Tesla in 2012 based on valuation and I'm holding my shares tight based on valuation.

Valuation is always about determining a fair price to pay for future earnings, thus always a forecasted earnings (think about it, in 2008, would it make any difference to you what GM's trailing earnings were as they headed toward bankruptcy? it's a companies future earnings that matter for valuation (of course you don't want to buy a company buried in debt or in a massive lawsuit, but fundamentally, value is all about future earnings.)

What is unusual, and extremely compelling, about Tesla is how far into the future you can forecast compelling future earnings with a high level of confidence.

The articles decrying Tesla on valuation imply that investor's only do their valuation analysis vs. next year's earnings, with Tesla I look at 2018, and too a lesser extent I do rough numbers for 2025.

This is absolutely value investing, just on a further reaching time horizon. this is a massive advantage to value investing in Tesla, not a disqualification from value investing.

Tesla's secret sauce?

1. they have at least a 3 year competitive advantage (I actually suspect 5+ years). this allows me to feel as confident about their market position 5 years from now as one might feel about another company one year from now (that is do my value investing on Tesla based on 2018 earnings rather than 2014 earnings critics imply is the only way to value Tesla).

It is very unusual for such a large competitive advantage to exist or be so transparent. The auto sector has a practice of revealing concept cars at auto shows and taking about 3 years to bring them to the market place. There's a dozen large global automakers... a new entry like Tesla happens with great rarity. Add in the billions of dollars in commitment to EVs to scale up battery production, and any competitive threat can be seen from a mile away. Looking at news like the suggested $135,000 2017 Audi SUV EV with 370 miles range gives visibility to the length of Tesla's advantage (it is easy to estimate that Tesla could make a 350 mile Model X and sell it for about $90,000 in 2017; obviously years ahead of Audi's theoretical SUV).

2. high confidence that they will deliver. from point 1 above, you can see the market place is wide open for Tesla to sell as many Gen III cars as they can make... if they can make the car they say they will make (a 200+ mile EV starting around $35K, with performance similar to a BMW 328i). based on what I've come to know about Tesla and Elon Musk over the last two years, when he says there is a clear path to the Gen III car, no miracles needed, I assign a very high probability that this will prove to be true. the battery factory and car may have a stumble, may overrun initial capital investment expense expectations, but I have very high confidence that a they will produce a Gen III car that will have a supply rather than demand problem.

Bottom line, I see 80% chance of eps in the $20 range in 2019, 20% in $12 range. I assign expected pe's to these scenarios and think the stock is worth $190 today (with a big margin of error, and huge upside beyond 2019, I do not sell at $191). to be fair, much of these earnings will likely be plowed into future growth, so $20 in eps may not be reported, but I like the earnings plowed back into massive expansion!

fwiw, the dichotomy I've suggested between looking at next years earnings typically and 5 years out for Tesla, is really a dichotomy between what those who want to talk down Tesla portray value investing to be, and what is possible for Tesla. anyone with a solid grasp of value investing will project earnings as far into the future as there is visibility for a given company. one other note, Elon has discussed Gen III as similar size to a BMW 3 series, the performance like a BMW 328i is something I've inferred (and seen others do likewise) from the size of battery this smaller car will likely have.
 
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Cameron, I invested in Tesla in 2012 based on valuation and I'm holding my shares tight based on valuation.

Valuation is always about determining a fair price to pay for future earnings, thus always a forecasted earnings (think about it, in 2008, would it make any difference to you what GM's trailing earnings were as they headed toward bankruptcy? it's a companies future earnings that matter for valuation (of course you don't want to buy a company buried in debt or in a massive lawsuit, but fundamentally, value is all about future earnings.)

What is unusual, and extremely compelling, about Tesla is how far into the future you can forecast compelling future earnings with a high level of confidence.

The articles decrying Tesla on valuation imply that investor's only do their valuation analysis vs. next year's earnings, with Tesla I look at 2018, and too a lesser extent I do rough numbers for 2025.

This is absolutely value investing, just on a further reaching time horizon. this is a massive advantage to value investing in Tesla, not a disqualification from value investing.

Tesla's secret sauce?

1. they have at least a 3 year competitive advantage (I actually suspect 5+ years). this allows me to feel as confident about their market position 5 years from now as one might feel about another company one year from now (that is do my value investing on Tesla based on 2018 earnings rather than 2014 earnings critics imply is the only way to value Tesla).

It is very unusual for such a large competitive advantage to exist or be so transparent. The auto sector has a practice of revealing concept cars at auto shows and taking about 3 years to bring them to the market place. There's a dozen large global automakers... a new entry like Tesla happens with great rarity. Add in the billions of dollars in commitment to EVs to scale up battery production, and any competitive threat can be seen from a mile away. Looking at news like the suggested $135,000 2017 Audi SUV EV with 370 miles range gives visibility to the length of Tesla's advantage (it is easy to estimate that Tesla could make a 350 mile Model X and sell it for about $90,000 in 2017; obviously years ahead of Audi's theoretical SUV).

2. high confidence that they will deliver. from point 1 above, you can see the market place is wide open for Tesla to sell as many Gen III cars as they can make... if they can make the car they say they will make (a 200+ mile EV starting around $35K, with performance similar to a BMW 328i). based on what I've come to know about Tesla and Elon Musk over the last two years, when he says there is a clear path to the Gen III car, no miracles needed, I assign a very high probability that this will prove to be true. the battery factory and car may have a stumble, may overrun initial capital investment expense expectations, but I have very high confidence that a they will produce a Gen III car that will have a supply rather than demand problem.

Bottom line, I see 80% chance of eps in the $20 range in 2019, 20% in $12 range. I assign expected pe's to these scenarios and think the stock is worth $190 today (with a big margin of error, and huge upside beyond 2019, I do not sell at $191). to be fair, much of these earnings will likely be plowed into future growth, so $20 in eps may not be reported, but I like the earnings plowed back into massive expansion!

fwiw, the dichotomy I've suggested between looking at next years earnings typically and 5 years out for Tesla, is really a dichotomy between what those who want to talk down Tesla portray value investing to be, and what is possible for Tesla. anyone with a solid grasp of value investing will project earnings as far into the future as there is visibility for a given company. one other note, Elon has discussed Gen III as similar size to a BMW 3 series, the performance like a BMW 328i is something I've inferred (and seen others do likewise) from the size of battery this smaller car will likely have.

great post SteveG. You should consider writing up an article on Seeking Alpha, seriously. I think you make great points and are a bit conservative considering the other revenue streams Tesla will likely have (supercharger licensing, battery pack licensing, energy storage on Solar energy, pickup truck design, etc. also keep in mind the lack of dealership model that Tesla has, it will take a lot for another automaker to back out of dealers and do the same direct to consumer selling.


on a side note has anyone noticed this?
Hollandes State Dinner: The Guest List - Washington Wire - WSJ


Looks as if Elon Musk might be chatting up Obama tonight (or vice versa).
 
great post SteveG. You should consider writing up an article on Seeking Alpha, seriously. I think you make great points and are a bit conservative considering the other revenue streams Tesla will likely have (supercharger licensing, battery pack licensing, energy storage on Solar energy, pickup truck design, etc. also keep in mind the lack of dealership model that Tesla has, it will take a lot for another automaker to back out of dealers and do the same direct to consumer selling.


on a side note has anyone noticed this?
Hollandes State Dinner: The Guest List - Washington Wire - WSJ


Looks as if Elon Musk might be chatting up Obama tonight (or vice versa).

It won't happen but maybe he can ask about the White House Petition or get some of the guests to sign the new one Curt made.
 
It won't happen but maybe he can ask about the White House Petition or get some of the guests to sign the new one Curt made.

Elon has Talulah with him, that might get some attention, but yeah, there's a lot of people at that diner, getting in more than a 30 second quick hello will be difficult, but maybe they can setup a time for a later meeting, or photo op, Tesla is one of Obamas success stories.
 
This break thru at 200 might look something like this (I hope) and it is why I didn't sell GOOG then and I'm not selling TSLA now. Their product and game plan is just better.

goog.PNG
 
It won't happen but maybe he can ask about the White House Petition or get some of the guests to sign the new one Curt made.
Yes, that would be a good idea to bring that up tonight...also perhaps the govt will be helping to fund the Giga factory and he will be thanking Obama for that, who knows...lots could be happening there we can't even imagine at this point

- - - Updated - - -

maybe even better, write an SA article as an open letter to Brian Sullivan and the entire staff at CNBC to find more underperforming examples than over performing examples SA Tesla longs find. Sullivan is one of the guys who says over and over the pointless market cap per car sold stat. I would gladly donate $1,000 if CNBC staffers got to work on this and ended up running smack into Tesla's rare (perhaps unprecedented) and highly compelling strategic position. who knows, we might never have to hear the market cap per car sold gibberish again.


Yes, do it do it!! This is the perfect time...the week or few days before earnings while TSLA will be getting tons of coverage
 
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