Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not sure why I'm still speculating on this as we will know for sure in a matter of minutes or hours but I can't help myself...

I think Elon RT the AP saving a life tweet (TMC thread too!) this morning indicates that the reveal will concern AP 2.0. I believe he also tweeted something about AP contemporaneously with the initial announcement tweet. Just shows what was on his mind when tweeting about the announcement.
 
Yeh so I thought we were discussing ZEV so not sure what's the relevance of GHG/CAFE revenue?.

If you re-read the initial post about this topic, I suggested there COULD be a "regulatory credit" surprise this quarter. The term encompasses ZEV, GTG, and CAFE credit sales. The latter two have been running $15-$20 million/quarter for the last three and a half years (when that detail is reported). Politicians are intent on making those burdens on traditional ICE OEMs ever more onerous. Consider that revenue stream, that drops straight to the bottom line, irrelevant as you prefer
 
Well, that will be the Bear cry when the stock shoots up in the aftermarket next week. But it's crap. ZEV credits are an ongoing source of revenue even if you are ideologically apposed to them, or like Elon doesn't like to count on them. I think the story will be they are marginally profitable without ZEV's and very profitable with them. That is a fine story and cash is king.

I love zev, but i don't expect the market to value the company based on zev. So spending countless
amount of time on it is not productive in my view.

Tesla needs all the help it can get until it reaches a steady state. And all of it is welcome
irrespective of the source. I would even welcome Narcos money without strings attached.

What is remarkable is that Tesla at 100,000 units is already at steady state.
 
@vgrinshpun, I think you'll find it interesting that both Honda and Mazda needs ~6,000 credits each year. Compared the current 2015 balance with the 2014 balance. A trending chart would probably help. :)

I think you're all overlooking the other company's POV. The OEM's only need enough credits to maintain a zero balance at the end of the year, not throughout the year. Knowing that there will always be a ready supply of ZEV credits from Tesla (2018 will be tons more), they no longer need to stockpile the credits for their needs. Instead, they can comply with the spirit of the law, and if their compliance EV's don't sell well, they'll just buy the difference on "pennies on the dollar". The number of pennies doesn't matter, it's the fact that there is always going to be buyers of the credit (since not every large/medium manufacturer will have a BEV in 2018) until at least 2020. Those deals will probably always be done in Q3 or Q4 as a last minute accounting measure (why buy for more than you really need?).

Anyway, this constant need for new credits should provide a non-zero floor for the ZEV credits.
 
I also think its hilarious that there are users suggesting that a program that has existed for some 5 years or so would suddenly be removed because it costs single-digit billions when it actually works to start incentivizing people to buy EVs. The original legislation that created it has a definitive endpoint and thus a cost ceiling built into it. They're not going to change it just because Tesla can produce 500k cars in the allotted time. They might not renew it though.

USA spends over a trillion dollars a year on defense alone. Single digit billions are a drop in the overall bucket.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoTslaGo
Do we have any hint on how or when the announcement will be done yet? I check Elon`s twitter but did not find anything - and the Tesla blog and the Tesla IR site are not helping either (or I just didn't`t see it).
I have nothing to back me up on this, but my gut feeling is that this is like the P100D announcement, and will be a press conference around noon PST.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jonathan Hewitt
Personally, I think the $7500 individual tax credit is almost irrelevant to demand for Model 3. Sure, there are a some that will only buy if they can get the $7500 credit but the vast majority will be buying because it will be a better car than anything else you can buy for the price regardless of the tax credit.
Funny. That almost sounds like something the CEO said was a design goal of Model 3.
 
I think stories like this lend support to the idea that Tesla would not dump all the credits for $100 or $250. They have the inside track on the lobbying efforts and the likelihood of the mandate getting stricter or weaker, and they are taking this into consideration when negotiating to sell them.

Put yourself in Tesla's shoes in August 2016. They are sitting on 63,000 credits and the ZEV credit market has crashed to 175 as some believe (midpoint of 2 recent pessimistic guesses), or $11 million. Standard price is 3500 pre-crash (and a possibility for it to go even higher if mandate is made more difficult). What Tesla would do in August, if it's a rational decisionmaker, is place expected values on various outcomes to determine if they want to sell now or wait and see. Keep in mind they have the best information re: which way the wind is blowing because they are involved in the negotiations and there is now public info about the mandate maybe being made stricter, so Tesla probably knew this for quite some time. Let's throw out random numbers and calculate expected value:

20% chance price goes down to 50 because mandate is further weakened: .2*50*63000 = 630,000
40% chance mandate stays the same and market remains 175: .4*175*63000 = 4,410,000
30% chance mandate is tightened/returned to normal 3500: .3*3500*63000 = 66,150,000
10% chance mandate is tightened as suggested in latest article, market is high end at 4000: .1*4000*63000 = 25,200,000

Expected value of waiting to sell: $96,390,000. Value of being risk averse and selling now @175: $11,025,000. Under these circumstances, Tesla DEFINITELY would have held on the credits as opposed to selling them. So, let's try more pessimistic scenarios:

50% chance price goes to 0: 0
30% chance stays at 175: 3,307,500
20% chance back to 3500: 44,100,000

EV = $47,407,500. Still FAR in excess of the guaranteed $11,025,000 from selling immediately, so a rational negotiator sits on the credits at this price. How bad does the expectation have to be to induce immediate selling?

90% chance goes to 0: 0
6% chance stays at 175: 661,500
4% chance back to 3500: 8,820,000

EV of under $10 million, which is worse than $11,025,000 guaranteed. There you go, in that scenario you sell the credits now - when you expect a less than 5% chance of the old ZEV market coming back. I'm not saying this isn't possible - maybe they did truly think the market was over 90% screwed even as they negotiated for better standards and final decisions had not been made - but I'm saying the probability greatly favors sitting on the credits instead of selling as they did if the market had truly crashed to 175.

Before you tell me this is all hocus pocus, I just want to note that this is exactly how litigators approach court cases and deciding whether to go to trial or settle out of court. They tally up the EV of each potential settlement amount, probability of winning in court, possibility of losing big, etc. - then assess appetite for risk and make an informed decision. I'd expect Tesla to make similar careful choices when dealing with the potential for hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
I also think its hilarious that there are users suggesting that a program that has existed for some 5 years or so would suddenly be removed because it costs single-digit billions when it actually works to start incentivizing people to buy EVs. The original legislation that created it has a definitive endpoint and thus a cost ceiling built into it. They're not going to change it just because Tesla can produce 500k cars in the allotted time. They might not renew it though.

USA spends over a trillion dollars a year on defense alone. Single digit billions are a drop in the overall bucket.

That's the perfect time to remove the incentive. The difficult part was to get manufacturers to produce a decent electric vehicle, now that Tesla has built something good enough to use up the subsidy cap it will be good enough to stand on its own two feet. The incentive has achieved exactly what i was supposed to. Additional incentives will now only have a marginal impact on adoption rather than creating the market.
 
  • Love
Reactions: tinm
$11 million. Standard price is 3500 pre-crash (and a possibility for it to go even higher if mandate is made more difficult). What Tesla would do in August, if it's a rational decisionmaker, is place expected values on various outcomes to determine if they want to sell now or wait and see.

You are forgetting one thing. There is also the value in being GAAP positive. If those $11M makes the difference between -0.03 EPS or 0.02 EPS (quite plausible even) then I am pretty sure the value in stock price reaction alone would be enough to balance out any potential future revenue stream. Not to mention value in the pride of the employees, fired on by the internal memo from Elon and then actually being able to deliver on it instead of disappointingly missing the stretch goal so narrowly.
 
I think stories like this lend support to the idea that Tesla would not dump all the credits for $100 or $250. They have the inside track on the lobbying efforts and the likelihood of the mandate getting stricter or weaker, and they are taking this into consideration when negotiating to sell them.

Put yourself in Tesla's shoes in August 2016. They are sitting on 63,000 credits and the ZEV credit market has crashed to 175 as some believe (midpoint of 2 recent pessimistic guesses), or $11 million. Standard price is 3500 pre-crash (and a possibility for it to go even higher if mandate is made more difficult). What Tesla would do in August, if it's a rational decisionmaker, is place expected values on various outcomes to determine if they want to sell now or wait and see. Keep in mind they have the best information re: which way the wind is blowing because they are involved in the negotiations and there is now public info about the mandate maybe being made stricter, so Tesla probably knew this for quite some time. Let's throw out random numbers and calculate expected value:

20% chance price goes down to 50 because mandate is further weakened: .2*50*63000 = 630,000
40% chance mandate stays the same and market remains 175: .4*175*63000 = 4,410,000
30% chance mandate is tightened/returned to normal 3500: .3*3500*63000 = 66,150,000
10% chance mandate is tightened as suggested in latest article, market is high end at 4000: .1*4000*63000 = 25,200,000

Expected value of waiting to sell: $96,390,000. Value of being risk averse and selling now @175: $11,025,000. Under these circumstances, Tesla DEFINITELY would have held on the credits as opposed to selling them. So, let's try more pessimistic scenarios:

50% chance price goes to 0: 0
30% chance stays at 175: 3,307,500
20% chance back to 3500: 44,100,000

EV = $47,407,500. Still FAR in excess of the guaranteed $11,025,000 from selling immediately, so a rational negotiator sits on the credits at this price. How bad does the expectation have to be to induce immediate selling?

90% chance goes to 0: 0
6% chance stays at 175: 661,500
4% chance back to 3500: 8,820,000

EV of under $10 million, which is worse than $11,025,000 guaranteed. There you go, in that scenario you sell the credits now - when you expect a less than 5% chance of the old ZEV market coming back. I'm not saying this isn't possible - maybe they did truly think the market was over 90% screwed even as they negotiated for better standards and final decisions had not been made - but I'm saying the probability greatly favors sitting on the credits instead of selling as they did if the market had truly crashed to 175.

Before you tell me this is all hocus pocus, I just want to note that this is exactly how litigators approach court cases and deciding whether to go to trial or settle out of court. They tally up the EV of each potential settlement amount, probability of winning in court, possibility of losing big, etc. - then assess appetite for risk and make an informed decision. I'd expect Tesla to make similar careful choices when dealing with the potential for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Great analysis. Here is a simpler one that gives the same result: In the pessimistic scenarios the other automakers have a large inventory which discourages them from buying more. Fine. But, Tesla still controls the ZEV "oilfields". They are the only game in town for sourcing. They are the ZEV OPEC. They can just completely embargo any sales for as long as it takes and essentially set the price. The only way that they lose this advantage is by panic dumping. Better to sit on them and let them rot than panic sell.
 
That's the perfect time to remove the incentive. The difficult part was to get manufacturers to produce a decent electric vehicle, now that Tesla has built something good enough to use up the subsidy cap it will be good enough to stand on its own two feet. The incentive has achieved exactly what i was supposed to. Additional incentives will now only have a marginal impact on adoption rather than creating the market.

What I said is that they won't change the rules of the incentive already in place. It was written with a definitive end built into it, designed to keep cost reasonable until it could be determined if further cost in subsidizing it was worthwhile.

I agree, Tesla building something good enough to trigger the cap likely means that Tesla can stand on its own two feet after that. That being said, it is unfair to Tesla to tie the endgame scenario to success of a single automaker. A more reasonable subsidy would have tied it to TOTAL EV sales of all manufacturers, not a per manufacturer limit. Otherwise, you unfairly give buyers incentive to buy less-popular (and presumably less compelling) EVs over Model 3 when they can get the incentive on another car but not Model 3. You essentially force Tesla (who, remember, produced the sufficiently compelling EV to trigger the end of the subsidy) into a $7,500 price disadvantage to inferior products.

This is less of an issue than everyone thinks though, because both GM and Tesla are in a race to the 200k finish line (with nobody else even close, and nobody else with a credible competitive product) and will reach it at approximately the same time - the difference is that by the time they reach the finish line, Tesla will be producing ~10x as many EVs as GM on an annual basis, and so if you want the credit in the 6 quarter long wind down, you're more likely to get it buying Tesla. There may be a brief window in which Bolt is eligible and Model 3 is not, but it will be shortlived.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.