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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Tesla chief Elon Musk says Apple is making an electric car

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35280633

Nothing new there. It is an open secret. Has been for several months.

The article was a nice summary piece for a broad audience, but didn't find anything new in it.

- - - Updated - - -

Well actually I think that Morgan Stanley is off its rocker by suggesting that Tesla would deliberately distract the narrative from marketing cars to their customers to announcing the benefits of not having to buy its cars in future.

What they (well Musk anyway) is doing is stating that in future a non AI car will have negative economic value and would have sentimental value like a horse - and he's just gone on record with a comment that EVs and AI are the greatest innovations since the moving production line and they're both happening in parallel.

The remainder can be deduced.

Agreed. Note that Tesla Energy wasn't announced until Tesla was basically ready to find out how much demand was there for the products, and to start working with initial buyers. Similarly, I don't see Tesla officially announcing anything until they are ready to move forward to a similar degree. Unless Elon sends out an unplanned tweet during one of his tweetstorms. ;) :D
 
With the upcoming Model 3 reveal fast approaching in March, does anyone have thoughts on Tesla charging >$35K in 2017?

I ask because of Elon's tweet on 9/2/15: "Model 3, our smaller and lower cost sedan will start production in about 2 years. Fully operational Gigafactory needed."

We know that only approximately 1/7th or 1/8th of the entire GF is completed to date. I know the first cars to be produced will be Sigs, which will cost more, but still.
 
This is a future that I believe I can see with some considerable clarity. I was discussing Tesla's ability and intent to roll out AHAAS (Autonomous Hardware As A Service) or AI EV fleet as I would term it long before Jonas of Morgan Stanley first queried Musk about it. For a point of reference Jonas thinks this is a good reason for TSLA to have a PT of $465.

IMO it is too early for AI EV fleet to determine or affect a current PT but seeing as you asked, the ability to operate a service like this completely destroys the economics of gasoline and internal combustion. Musk is correct by stating that a non AI car will be like a horse - sentimental value only - but to put a finer point on it, this assumes that the AI car is an EV. The reason for that is because the AI EV will have a cost per mile including amortization of the vehicle of approximately the cost of gasoline with no car, no maintenance and of course no driver. The cost of Gasoline alone kills the ability to compete - even at $1.80 per Gallon there is nothing left to buy a car to run on it if you want to compete with a Tesla AI EV in a fleet setting. Musk put it succinctly in the recent BBC interview: 'Electric Vehicles and Autonomy are the two biggest innovations since the moving production line and they are both happening in parallel'.

As stealthology suggested "I think the majority of autonomous driving in the future will be SAAS" (I guess he meant AHAAS) - yes that is true and here is why.

The AHAAS AI EV will extend private transportation in cars to people that could not previously afford a car (which is a lot of people). It will also serve anyone that is not particularly interested in spending money on cars and would prefer to spend their money on something else - which will be possible with no loss of freedom to get from A to B in your own privacy whenever you want either on your own or with whoever you want (and without the risk, cost and intrusion of a stranger in the driver's seat - or the loss of a seat).

Even with such a service in place representing effectively unlimited demand for what Tesla can make and no existing car maker can compete with - there will remain demand for exclusive use of a private car. If you can afford it and you want to spend your money that way, the market for the luxury of individual ownership will exist and a market for luxurious types cars will exist too.

There will also be a blurring of the boundaries. One of the perks of privately owning a Tesla in future will be the ability to turn it over to Tesla's fleet management while you are at work, asleep or out of town. Then it can start paying you back for owning it. This ability to earn value from a car that is primarily 'yours' will I think give rise to novel leasing structures too.

Considering such a AHAAS / AI EV Fleet service will start off scarce and proceed over a period of years and hundreds of millions and ultimately billions of vehicles before saturating demand it would make sense to offer it as Uber is known to do in a service marketplace where price is set by the market. Considering Uber is charging typically $2+ per mile and Tesla will be operating at a cost of $0.06 cents per mile the profit potential of this service is utterly phenomenal while operating on a cost basis that undercuts any other means of getting around except perhaps walking (even that is questionable - how many miles can a person walk for the cost of one Snickers bar?). A second hand ICE car costing $500 definitely cannot compete with a $40,000 AI EV on a cost per mile basis after fuel and maintenance and riding in the $40K car will be much nicer. This is significant because the AI EV will not just crush the economic viability of new ICE production it will also hasten the legacy ICE fleet to the scrap yard. This in turn will eviscerate residual values of ICE vehicles and hasten the lost viability of purchasing one. This will literally trigger a vortex-dump of the Oil and ICE paradigm decades sooner than the majority of people appreciate.

Competition. I don't think competition will come from the existing majors. I think instead they will go bust. There is no realistic way of getting out of ICE manufacturing or the dealership business model as fast as this will occur and an AI EV fleet has no need for middlemen to process sales and is most unlikely to benefit from the existence of a third party service industry. In Tesla's case, no. The service function needs to be networked into the fleet and to be incentivized to reduce fleet costs, not profit motivated to increase them.

In the USA incumbent auto makers cannot even deploy an OTA network because it is against franchised dealership rules (GM Bolt helped clarify that one) - and they cannot get out of the dealerships. It is completely impossible to operate an AI EV fleet without an OTA network, a service network and a charging network - Tesla has all of these, ICE auto makers have none of them. For example you cannot have Autonomous cars roaming the streets with passengers in them without continuous remote service status monitoring. Instead competition will come from Apple, Samsung, LG, maybe Faraday + collaborators, and from other well-funded startups. The production lines of today's big auto I think will be up for grabs in Chapter 11 and similar around the world but all of these competitors will need batteries and in that regard I think Tesla will look a lot like Saudi Aramco does today (the world's largest oil company). Tesla: The world's supplier of Gigafactories.

So bottom line reality: The actual Tesla business plan that it is on track to execute is ridiculously more positive for a net present DCF valuation than even the most forward-thinking TSLA Bull has ever suggested, except perhaps TSLA's largest shareholder.

I'm on track with all this except Tesla owners lending their privately owned cars to be used as service vehicles. I for one would not want to do this. One of the privilegeS of owning your own car is being able to keep your thongs in it and not have other people doing stuff to your car. This kind of possessiveness is not going to go away and will form the essential core of private ownership. However, where this model works to the advantage of private ownership is that it creates a very strong secondary market for a car. For example, you can lease a car for a few years on very good terms and enjoy all the advantages of exclusive ownership, and after the lease the car goes into a service fleet which extracts all the residual value in short order. The more valuable a 3 year old Tesla is, the less it costs to lease or own a new one.

Regarding our debate yesterday about whether current Teslas are pre-wired for additional sensors needed for full autonomy, one does well to consider Tesla's interest in residual value. The value of a CPO goes up if Tesla can retrofit the car to support the latest technology. Thus, pre-wiring for AP 2.0 definitely creates value for Tesla as an option for future upgrades. This of course is not sufficient to tell us what Tesla has actually done. It merely tells us what has been within Tesla's interest to have done. So the question is one of foresight, not motivation.
 
I'm on track with all this except Tesla owners lending their privately owned cars to be used as service vehicles. I for one would not want to do this. One of the privilegeS of owning your own car is being able to keep your thongs in it and not have other people doing stuff to your car. This kind of possessiveness is not going to go away and will form the essential core of private ownership.

Personally I agree with you: my car is not to be touched by people I don't know. It has my stuff in it and I rarely let other people drive. And it's only a $30K-car! If it were a more expensive Model S or X, I'd be even more protective of my vehicle.

That being said, our opinion on this is our own. I know many people first-hand that have other ideas about property and possession. For example:
-all the car-sharing services available (usually only popular in cities), where people don't own a car but pay a subscription-fee and can orde the use of a car 5 days in advance when they need it;
-people doing the whole airBnB-thing: lending your home out to strangers in exchange for a little cash;
-there's even many other "sharing" initiatives: sharing power tools, (the use of ) washing machines, etc.

So with the cheaper Model 3 there will definitely be people willing to lend their car to the Tesla-fleet, especially if they would make a buck or two.

On the other hand I believe many people that cannot afford (or don't want to pay for) an expensive vehicle will agree to buy an autonomous Model S/X/3 together, and share it between (only) them.

Back on topic: I expect TSLA to jump back up today and stay above $210.
 
With the upcoming Model 3 reveal fast approaching in March, does anyone have thoughts on Tesla charging >$35K in 2017?

I ask because of Elon's tweet on 9/2/15: "Model 3, our smaller and lower cost sedan will start production in about 2 years. Fully operational Gigafactory needed."

We know that only approximately 1/7th or 1/8th of the entire GF is completed to date. I know the first cars to be produced will be Sigs, which will cost more, but still.

There are two statements that Elon has made repeatedly over the past year: the Model 3 will go into production in late 2017 and will cost $35,000. He has not wavered on these two points. I expect he will push very hard to meet these two objectives for the Model 3.
 
Sounds like just about all the US Model X reservation holders have now been invited to configure as of today. Either production is continuing to ramp up steadily or many reservation holders are waiting for the 90D/70D. Or maybe both.
Canadian Signatures have also been invited.

No OTA is a "feature ". :)
At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last week, the head of GM's global product development, Mark Reuss, said his company would “never” use over-the-air upgrades in safety-critical systems like steering and braking.
Regarding our debate yesterday about whether current Teslas are pre-wired for additional sensors needed for full autonomy, one does well to consider Tesla's interest in residual value. The value of a CPO goes up if Tesla can retrofit the car to support the latest technology. Thus, pre-wiring for AP 2.0 definitely creates value for Tesla as an option for future upgrades. This of course is not sufficient to tell us what Tesla has actually done. It merely tells us what has been within Tesla's interest to have done. So the question is one of foresight, not motivation.

Elon Musk made this prediction, which he said might be "slightly optimistic," in a press call Sunday, following the release of v7.1. Musk envisions a scenario where a Tesla owner is in California and their car is in New York, but they can summon their car cross-country autonomously.

For this to happen, Musk says Autopilot-equipped Teslas would require more hardware than what's currently installed. Right now, the human operator is "plan B" if Autopilot hardware fails, but with full autonomy, another layer of equipment must be put in place as a fail-safe.
 
While I'm all for a lively discussion of shared mobility and autonomous driving guys, can we talk about this in the long-term thread?

Price action at open has been solid this morning. Looks like the market is starting to not panic as much about the Chinese market sideshow, but is still paying attention to the crude oil price sideshow. I still think prolonged cheap oil is a net positive for US company revenues and US consumer spending, but the market currently likes to pretend that cheap oil means cheap stocks, so we just track the price of oil.

Plotting the correlation between USO and TSLA (and in fact the market) is an interesting one. The yellow line in my plot below is USO (ETF that approximates price of crude oil) and as you can see, since the beginning of December we have tracked it quite closely:

TSLA USO correlation 12-15 to 1-16.png
 
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With the upcoming Model 3 reveal fast approaching in March, does anyone have thoughts on Tesla charging >$35K in 2017?

I ask because of Elon's tweet on 9/2/15: "Model 3, our smaller and lower cost sedan will start production in about 2 years. Fully operational Gigafactory needed."

We know that only approximately 1/7th or 1/8th of the entire GF is completed to date. I know the first cars to be produced will be Sigs, which will cost more, but still.
I am not Musk's interpreter but I believe he did not mean every square foot built out and at maximum productivity. I believe he meant producing battery and packs. They can complete the rest of the factory to full production as demand increases.
 
At what point do states simply agree to increase the tax on gasoline to offset the drop in the price of gasoline?
Option 1) Impose tariff on imported oil.
Option 2) Double tax on gasoline.

More people are buying Trucks and SUVs because of dealer incentives and $2 gasoline. It will be horrible for the economy, and all environmental initiatives if people begin to accept $2 gasoline as the "new norm". Why aren't more states simply taking advantage of the glut to increase taxes at a time when many states need the cash?

House GOP propose raising states gas tax as part of long-term transportation funding plan | CBS 4 - Indianapolis News, Weather, Traffic and Sports | WTTV

Missouri lawmakers to consider raising gas tax again this year | Local News - KMBC Home

Arkansas Trucking Association President Calls For Gas Tax Hike | Times Record
 
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I am not Musk's interpreter but I believe he did not mean every square foot built out and at maximum productivity. I believe he meant producing battery and packs. They can complete the rest of the factory to full production as demand increases.

I agree with you Chickenlittle. Also we need to keep in mind that 8 phases doesn't mean that 1/7th or 1/8th of the space is complete. It can mean some phases are efficiency related or nice to have's. Also, the initial plan of the GF was smaller than what they are building out now.

I think Tesla is going to go for the low hanging fruit first in terms of cost and speed. It's going to allocate more packs to Tesla energy because it's easier to sell to commercial customers, easier to build than a car, and the environmental impact will be far greater/deeper on the Powerpack side than a car. Based on pack production, they can fine tune logistics and material costs which can increase gross margin on the cars that will be built later.
 
Moderator Interjection

There is too much discussion - often at cross-currents with other such - that really bears not at all on TSLA price movements. What's been posted is too inchoate to pick apart and place in the appropriate sub-forums, so I'll just request all to remember to stay at least almost on topic.

It's not a weekend, after all....

Thank you.
 
I just had an epiphany. I think the OTA AP discussion does belong in a medium term thread.

"I actually think at the point which cars are being made that have full autonomy, any cars that are being made that don't have full autonomy will have negative value."
I believe that the ICE OEM's could overcome the OTA issue. But I also think that in the development of AP the way that Tesla is using OTA is a huge advantage for Tesla. And we can see EM's prediction about value is already coming true. One of the most valuable features in new (upgrade inducing) and used MS's now is AP. Tesla is clearly on the path to rolling out full autonomy ahead of the rest of the industry. Nobody seems to be picking up on the fact that as they get closer it's a huge competitive advantage. Right now it's causing Tesla buyers to upgrade. But in two years if it's obvious that Tesla is closer than the Bolt, for example who will choose a Bolt over an M3?
 
I just had an epiphany. I think the OTA AP discussion does belong in a medium term thread.


I believe that the ICE OEM's could overcome the OTA issue. But I also think that in the development of AP the way that Tesla is using OTA is a huge advantage for Tesla. And we can see EM's prediction about value is already coming true. One of the most valuable features in new (upgrade inducing) and used MS's now is AP. Tesla is clearly on the path to rolling out full autonomy ahead of the rest of the industry. Nobody seems to be picking up on the fact that as they get closer it's a huge competitive advantage. Right now it's causing Tesla buyers to upgrade. But in two years if it's obvious that Tesla is closer than the Bolt, for example who will choose a Bolt over an M3?

This is 100% right. I keep going back to this to highlight just how much of a lead Tesla currently has:

-Model 3: Supercharger Network. $35k before incentives. Tesla heritage (sporty, fast, good looking, high-tech). Autopilot. OTA upgrades. 200+miles of range.
-Bolt: No supercharger. $37.5k before incentives. Not sporty, fast, or good looking, but high tech. No autopilot. No OTA upgrades. 200+ miles of range.

It's a no-brainer, right?
 
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