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Shorting Oil, Hedging Tesla

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I appreciate the outcome that you see, but most importantly the factors you see and how they'll work out. I disagree with the conclusions you're drawing but the thoughts behind the conclusions are valuable to me.

The changes that spurred my own adoption:
- the performance is crazy fun :) I never cared about performance in a car - just gas mileage and reliability (27 years in a Honda CRX). Then I test drove a Model S and zowie! It's still not a feature I'd pay much for though.
- Refueling in the garage over night. I'd read enough that I was sure I understood this benefit. It was intellectual though, and took me something like 6 months of driving an EV before it really sank in. There's been a term around EVs for a long time - range anxiety - referring to running out of charge in one's EV. For me range anxiety has flipped. When I find myself in a rental or ICE for some other reason, I find myself refueling at 25-50% :) My 'worry' is that I'll need to refuel at a time that proves inconvenient (running 5 minutes late for an appointment) which just turns into more stress.

With over night charging the refueling paradigm for transportation shifts to the paradigm most people use with their cell phones. Plug them in over night and its fully charged and ready to go for another day in the morning.

- Environment / climate change matter to me and I figured that if I could afford it and didn't make the shift, then I was slowing down the shift for everybody else. I also realize that this isn't a motivator for all.

- Not a motivator for me, but I've seen it articulated by others - national energy security. We can reduce our dependency on energy imports from other countries by generating electricity locally. The EV carbon and pollution footprint changes and improves with changes in the electricity production mix. ICE vehicles don't change (or at least change very little; there are some tweaks in gas formulation but at trivial scale by comparison).


I realize that many of these don't hold for all.


The primary dynamic that I see though is economic for the companies in the businesses. Whether car makers or oil miners, all of these businesses are very capital intense. The characteristic of capital intense businesses is a very high level investment in order to build the first unit of output. Car factory, oil well explore / drill / ship, pipeline transportation, etc.. These businesses can be crazy profitable when the investments have high utilization and can go bankrupt with bad utilization. I think of this sort of like leverage in the stock market - revenue up and downside carries with it outsized impact on profit.

My own mental model of what this will look like in the O&G industry (at much larger scale) is the coal mining industry. Somewhere around 2007 was the peak valuation for that industry. From then to 2017 the valuation on the businesses went down to roughly 0 - minor drops in market share, pricing pressure, combined to put companies through serial bankruptcies. Today, at least in the US, the remaining coal mines are owned privately and being operated as run-off assets; keep producing what's already in place but that's about it.

This is within a larger overall environment where coal's share of the countrywide energy pie dropped from something like 33% to 28%. Coal still has a massive share of the US energy pie today (20-25%?) and won't be going away soon, but the writing is on the wall. I've read of at least one circumstance where a colocated mine and electricity plant were no longer economic to operate. The fuel cost for the coal was so high that even with ~$0 cost to transport coal from mine to generation plant, the coal was still too expensive to buy and generate electricity with.

Today - any new or replacement capital investment for electricity production is cheapest via wind or solar. And its not by a little - it's a lot. New solar projects are selling their next 15 years of production at $20/MWh and lower. That compares to $60+/MWh for coal generated electricity, just for the fuel. More recently the solar and wind projects can incorporate sufficiently large batteries to level off / firm up the power provided and still keep the overall project budget and delivered power price in that $20/MWh range.

For O&G I see a very long runway where oil is being phased out. Probably the end of the century kind of time scale. But the business value of the companies will plummet to ~0 and that'll happen 'soon' (2030?). It will be WAY, WAY far in advance of significant drops in oil consumption.

I also see the best business valuation and operating characteristic for O&G is to operate existing assets and end exploration and drilling for new resources. I don't consider in-fill for existing wells / production fields as new investment (at least on land - deep sea is a different kettle of fish) - it's more like wringing the bit from the existing resource. The key here is that the companies being run this way have to stop borrowing money to fund dividends.

From my POV, if a company is borrowing money and paying a dividend, then the borrowed money is being used to fund the dividend. Money should only be borrowed in order to fund R&D and capital investment / maintenance. Using borrowed money to fund the dividend actually works reasonably well right now with trivial interest rates, but that's a party that can't go on.


For car companies a minor drop in ICE units is going to shift a low margin business from profitable to money losing fast. My guess is that a 10% drop in units will be enough to put most of these companies on the ropes. And the really tough thing for all of these car makers (Innovator's Dilemma) is that the primary competition for any really good EVs that they build, are their own ICE vehicles.

Ford will be replacing highly profitable ICE F150 sales with F150 Lightning sales. But the units won't be high enough to start to make them profitable. They'll need to build up to some minimal scale to become profitable and that will be cutting (replacing) the ICE F150 sales. The valley of death they need to walk to get to the other side (profitable EV sales) is going to claim a lot of companies. I don't know which.

And the economic dynamics that are so bad for the car makers is going to trickle down to the #1 demand source for O&G - transportation. That disruption is already happening with shifts in the fuel mix that is profitable for refiners. Some are setup so they can shift along with, maybe with modest capital investments.


In short - economics is going to drive the end of O&G, and they're already happening. The 2030 oil mining industry will be producing similar amounts of output as today, but company valuations will have gone down - probably to the level consistent with supportable dividend payments.
Performance in EVs is cool to look at right now but seems to run contradictory to the ESG movement. In the IEA's roadmap to Net Zero by 2050, highway speeds need to be limited to 100km/hr to maximize energy efficiency and further reduce emissions. If we actually want to achieve these goals, cars need to be driven reasonably and this emphasis on production vehicle 0-60 and quarter mile times is missing the mark.

The US just recently achieved energy security on the O&G side and now we're looking at switching to rare earths that are almost entirely controlled by China. Good luck building any mines for this stuff in North America when nobody here wants it in their back yards.
@AndreP, welcome to the thread! It's good to have a fossil investor here. I'd be curious what year you expect oil production or consumption to peak. From the beginning of this thread we've pretty much have expected peak consumption to happen by 2025, but have discussed factors that may adjust the peak.

Additionally we have long recognized that the peak is far enough off that it need not be driving factor in the near term performance of oil companies. Moreover, whether oil companies are profitable through the peak or not depends critically on how much the industry might over invest in production. Overproduction kills profitability even though it can drive oil prices low enough to sustain growth in the quantity consumed. The thing that is most difficult for the oil industry is to increase total revenue; you can sell more volume at unprofitable prices or sell less volume at higher prices. In recent years, oil companies have become more fiscally responsible, but perhaps the Covid-19 recovery could bring heedless drilling back into fashion.

So let us know when you expect the peak to happen and whether you think the industry will return to overproduction or exercise more financial discipline. Cheers!
I'm invested in companies that generate big free cash flow @ $40 WTI and already have the infrastructure in place while sitting on 20-30 years of proven oil reserves, so they require very minimal new cash. If we believe that Saudi Arabia will be controlling the market in the future, they currently need $60 WTI to break even with their economy being hugely reliant on O&G revenues and my companies will be raking in the money at those prices.


Capex towards new production is seriously low right now and I think the ESG movement will further exacerbate it. If demand doesn't keep pace, we'll be in for some seriously turbulent times in oil & gas. I see Brent going to $100 next year.

I'm solely concerned about whether the companies I'm invested in will have buyers for their product in 20 years and can't say I have any doubts about that!
 
Performance in EVs is cool to look at right now but seems to run contradictory to the ESG movement. In the IEA's roadmap to Net Zero by 2050, highway speeds need to be limited to 100km/hr to maximize energy efficiency and further reduce emissions. If we actually want to achieve these goals, cars need to be driven reasonably and this emphasis on production vehicle 0-60 and quarter mile times is missing the mark.

The US just recently achieved energy security on the O&G side and now we're looking at switching to rare earths that are almost entirely controlled by China. Good luck building any mines for this stuff in North America when nobody here wants it in their back yards.

I'm invested in companies that generate big free cash flow @ $40 WTI and already have the infrastructure in place while sitting on 20-30 years of proven oil reserves, so they require very minimal new cash. If we believe that Saudi Arabia will be controlling the market in the future, they currently need $60 WTI to break even with their economy being hugely reliant on O&G revenues and my companies will be raking in the money at those prices.


Capex towards new production is seriously low right now and I think the ESG movement will further exacerbate it. If demand doesn't keep pace, we'll be in for some seriously turbulent times in oil & gas. I see Brent going to $100 next year.

I'm solely concerned about whether the companies I'm invested in will have buyers for their product in 20 years and can't say I have any doubts about that!
So, when do you see peak demand? 2019, 2025? 20??
 
So, when do you see peak demand? 2019, 2025? 20??

How many times have people attempted calling peak demand in the past and been completely wrong?

I doubt we've seen peak if only because pent up post-pandemic demand is about to unleash itself. I hope demand peaks by 2025 at the latest for the world's sake, but then I see a very gradual decline and tons of money to be made as we continue this transition.
 
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Performance in EVs is cool to look at right now but seems to run contradictory to the ESG movement. In the IEA's roadmap to Net Zero by 2050, highway speeds need to be limited to 100km/hr to maximize energy efficiency and further reduce emissions. If we actually want to achieve these goals, cars need to be driven reasonably and this emphasis on production vehicle 0-60 and quarter mile times is missing the mark.

The US just recently achieved energy security on the O&G side and now we're looking at switching to rare earths that are almost entirely controlled by China. Good luck building any mines for this stuff in North America when nobody here wants it in their back yards.

I think you've mis-understood something there. 0-60 is just icing on the cake. If you look at the MPGe ratings of the Teslas versus the Hyundai/Kia/Nissan/GM EV's, you'll see that Tesla gets better efficiency DESPITE having higher performance. And that goes to the crux of the matter, electric drivetrains change the equations so dramatically that most people have difficulty comprehending the ramifications of those changes. We've been so used to trading performance for fuel economy for so long that the thought that you can have both seems contradictory. For once in our lifetimes, achieving the IEA's roadmap can now be accomplished through economics (as long as externalities like climate change are priced in).

As for the peak demand call, I haven't seen anyone (outside of this thread) claim demand had peaked. And with 2022-23 still in the future, they're not wrong yet. I've heard many studies siting peak supply though, and those studies had indeed been proven wrong due to new extraction methods that produced new supply.
 
How many times have people attempted calling peak demand in the past and been completely wrong?

I doubt we've seen peak if only because pent up post-pandemic demand is about to unleash itself. I hope demand peaks by 2025 at the latest for the world's sake, but then I see a very gradual decline and tons of money to be made as we continue this transition.
I haven't been wrong yet. 2025 is still in the future!
 
I'm solely concerned about whether the companies I'm invested in will have buyers for their product in 20 years and can't say I have any doubts about that!
I don't think you have anything to worry about with regard to buyers looking for these products in 20 years. There will certainly be some crude demand in 2040, just like there will be coal demand in 2025.

In coal timeline terms, crude is at about 2010. Demand had either just peaked or was about to peak. Regardless......the bottom fell out 2-3 years later and everyone went to zero. It's fantasy to think the same thing won't happen to the oil & gas sector.

I'm in the camp stating that crude demand has now peaked in 2019. Other rational estimates range from 2023-2028. Regardless.....
 

Weird times. Probably not good to extrapolate from current situation.

I flew down to Greensboro, NC in the middle of the pandemic to buy a pristine 2006 Wrangler. Paid through the nose and I think I could nearly double my money if I sold today having put a few dollars into it.

Here comes the Age of Volatility!
 
I don't think you have anything to worry about with regard to buyers looking for these products in 20 years. There will certainly be some crude demand in 2040, just like there will be coal demand in 2025.

In coal timeline terms, crude is at about 2010. Demand had either just peaked or was about to peak. Regardless......the bottom fell out 2-3 years later and everyone went to zero. It's fantasy to think the same thing won't happen to the oil & gas sector.

I'm in the camp stating that crude demand has now peaked in 2019. Other rational estimates range from 2023-2028. Regardless.....
Can you name some of these publicly-traded coal companies that went to zero? I'm not familiar with that industry or their financials and am not sure googling names is providing much insight.

If the company is selling a product to people while controlling costs and generating profit, they won't be at zero. If a company is trading at a steep discount compared to its cash flows, that sounds like a buying opportunity and is exactly what a value investor would be looking at.


Won't divulge my full view or strategies in the range of possible scenarios that may unfold over the next 5-10-20 years, but I will say that I'll likely dump my oil holdings (likely only temporarily) if benchmark prices shoot towards $100 and equities follow
 

One theory about the used car price surge is that the EV Osborne effect is also contributing to a shortfall in new car sales. To be sure COVID-19 impacted car rental companies and other new car buyers. So this is probably what is leading to whacky extremes at the present moment, but nevertheless an EV Osborne effect has plausibly being slowing new car sales for several years prior to the pandemic. Consider that in 2019 automakers churned out 89M new light duty vehicles, and this fell to 75M in 2020. Can this 14M shortfall fully explain why used cars are fetching prices above their original sticker price? Probably not. Many OEMs have limited supplies of computer chips. Moreover, the pandemic made private auto ownership sexy again. So these factors likely contribute too to the shortage of used vehicles for sale.

Thus, the context of the pandemic makes it very hard to assess to what degree the promise of awesome EVs in the future may have been suppressing ICE sales for the last several years. Even so, it is good for the used car market to have tight supply. This helps to mitigate the risk that a new car buyer will suffer excess depreciation due to obsolescence. So that lessens the intensity of the Osborne effect. But on the flip side, high used car demand is good for more quickly replacing ICE in the fleet with EVs. We want the fleet to shrink until there is a big enough supply of EVs to saturate the new car market.

We'll need to see this recovery year play out before we can get a good read on the Osborne effect. But at least we can be hopeful that the used car market is tight.
 
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Can you name some of these publicly-traded coal companies that went to zero? I'm not familiar with that industry or their financials and am not sure googling names is providing much insight.

If the company is selling a product to people while controlling costs and generating profit, they won't be at zero. If a company is trading at a steep discount compared to its cash flows, that sounds like a buying opportunity and is exactly what a value investor would be looking at.


Won't divulge my full view or strategies in the range of possible scenarios that may unfold over the next 5-10-20 years, but I will say that I'll likely dump my oil holdings (likely only temporarily) if benchmark prices shoot towards $100 and equities follow
It was pretty much all of them. You can Google Peabody for a good example.

I would take a good hard look at coal equities before trying to leverage these last few spikes into an investment theory. Equities are always forward-looking.
 
It was pretty much all of them. You can Google Peabody for a good example.

I would take a good hard look at coal equities before trying to leverage these last few spikes into an investment theory. Equities are always forward-looking.
If someone had been watching coal companies and scooped up Peabody in November last year when they were massively discounted, they would be up 600%+ right now

I'm a value investor. Is the business profitable? Is it trading at a fair value compared to its recent and projected cash flows and its peers? Areas where people are fearful and companies are trading at a discount as a result, those are often the best buys and that's exactly why I was scooping up oil at the beginning of last year when everyone else was running for the hills.

Not to say I'd buy coal because I don't fully understand that industry, but being cheap relative to cash flow is exactly what I look for
 
If someone had been watching coal companies and scooped up Peabody in November last year when they were massively discounted, they would be up 600%+ right now

I'm a value investor. Is the business profitable? Is it trading at a fair value compared to its recent and projected cash flows and its peers? Areas where people are fearful and companies are trading at a discount as a result, those are often the best buys and that's exactly why I was scooping up oil at the beginning of last year when everyone else was running for the hills.

Not to say I'd buy coal because I don't fully understand that industry, but being cheap relative to cash flow is exactly what I look for

Do you think there are investors who nailed literally the only profitable window of Peabody share ownership from 2014 thru the end of time? If this post-bankruptcy/delisting/relisting chart is a place you want to invest on the long end......best of luck catching something other than a market-wide pandemic buying window.

peabody.png


There is no money to be made in coal. Period.....broadly speaking. Today there's no money to be made in refining, tomorrow there's no money to be made in crude extraction. It's a pretty obvious parallel. People are just trying to figure out the definition of "tomorrow" and are still under the delusion there will be "winners" and "losers" across the sector in the medium(5-20 year) term. That delusion will soon pass when reality becomes more stark.
 
The market is BEGGING for barrels. Hurry up and find some barrels!

OPEC+ Weighs Cautious Supply Hike as Market Begs for Barrels


Never mind the fact that a month ago US crude and product supplies were at 1,904,404 barrels, and today they're at........1,906,745. This narrative has got some legs!

If this can run all the way through the summer, frackers will have sold off years of production right? The majors that moved into the Permian can buy up all these futures contracts and lock in maybe $65 barrels for 2023 delivery. Is that how they do it? Trying to think this through is making guess we see one massive initial spike that runs for quite a long while. It's in everyone's interest to do so. Traders, banks, domestic production....hell even the dollar.
 
Do you think there are investors who nailed literally the only profitable window of Peabody share ownership from 2014 thru the end of time? If this post-bankruptcy/delisting/relisting chart is a place you want to invest on the long end......best of luck catching something other than a market-wide pandemic buying window.

View attachment 677110

There is no money to be made in coal. Period.....broadly speaking. Today there's no money to be made in refining, tomorrow there's no money to be made in crude extraction. It's a pretty obvious parallel. People are just trying to figure out the definition of "tomorrow" and are still under the delusion there will be "winners" and "losers" across the sector in the medium(5-20 year) term. That delusion will soon pass when reality becomes more stark.
We don't need to question whether people nailed the bottom, the chart tells most of the story. BTU was trading at ~$3 or below for 10 months leading up to December 2020 and ~$2 or below from October to December. Every stock trade has a buyer and a seller by definition, so buyers of volume within those windows would be sitting on gains of varying massiveness assuming they hadn't already cashed out their profits along the way.

I don't know coal or these companies, but yeah I have no doubt that people who do know them have made and/or are making money on them. Beyond that, analysts seem to have Peabody's fair value at almost $11 so it seems like there is still big potential upside. I think you're overcomplicating this and letting emotion/bias influence your assessment, and that's exactly the type of stuff people like me would be looking to capitalize on.
 
Can you name some of these publicly-traded coal companies that went to zero? I'm not familiar with that industry or their financials and am not sure googling names is providing much insight.

If the company is selling a product to people while controlling costs and generating profit, they won't be at zero. If a company is trading at a steep discount compared to its cash flows, that sounds like a buying opportunity and is exactly what a value investor would be looking at.


Won't divulge my full view or strategies in the range of possible scenarios that may unfold over the next 5-10-20 years, but I will say that I'll likely dump my oil holdings (likely only temporarily) if benchmark prices shoot towards $100 and equities follow
Here is some info over on Wikipedia.

A bit down the page is a list of the big coal companies. The longer history isn't listed but I'm pretty sure you can find it easily with a search. The top 4 are all in Ch 11 bankruptcy, or entered and departed, since 2016. In the longer history I believe you'll find that the valuation of these companies has plummeted since 2007 and that they have experienced multiple bankruptcies.


Coal still provides a large % of the fuel for electricity generation in the US. The value of the companies that mine the coal is virtually non-existent compared to what they were in 2007. Providing units of product doesn't mean that the market values those units the same over time.
 
We don't need to question whether people nailed the bottom, the chart tells most of the story. BTU was trading at ~$3 or below for 10 months leading up to December 2020 and ~$2 or below from October to December. Every stock trade has a buyer and a seller by definition, so buyers of volume within those windows would be sitting on gains of varying massiveness assuming they hadn't already cashed out their profits along the way.

I don't know coal or these companies, but yeah I have no doubt that people who do know them have made and/or are making money on them. Beyond that, analysts seem to have Peabody's fair value at almost $11 so it seems like there is still big potential upside. I think you're overcomplicating this and letting emotion/bias influence your assessment, and that's exactly the type of stuff people like me would be looking to capitalize on.

I think there's a million things to invest in across the globe. Why would I go long on something everyone knows is going to zero, even if it's for just a few months? Isn't it far easier to short something everyone agrees is moving toward obsolescence?

Your logic reminds me of the early Tesla shorts. Yes TSLA was clear deeply "overvalued" in 2014 using any rational metrics.....but we knew it's continued growth and success was a near certainty. Why a short specialist would target something that could so clearly burn you for 10x is beyond me. There are far easier targets for shorting.

I guess some people just like a challenge. I see your point that "irrational pricing is irrational pricing", but these companies are overvalued even if profitable oil extraction weren't ending. I mean......Chevron is worth $200B and might clear $15-35B in total profits from now til eternity. If they're extremely lucky. That could go to zero any day, just like all of coal did.
 
We don't need to question whether people nailed the bottom, the chart tells most of the story. BTU was trading at ~$3 or below for 10 months leading up to December 2020 and ~$2 or below from October to December. Every stock trade has a buyer and a seller by definition, so buyers of volume within those windows would be sitting on gains of varying massiveness assuming they hadn't already cashed out their profits along the way.

I don't know coal or these companies, but yeah I have no doubt that people who do know them have made and/or are making money on them. Beyond that, analysts seem to have Peabody's fair value at almost $11 so it seems like there is still big potential upside. I think you're overcomplicating this and letting emotion/bias influence your assessment, and that's exactly the type of stuff people like me would be looking to capitalize on.
All good points.

My primary takeaway is that you invest on a shorter time frame than I do. Which is totally legit and I have nothing against by any means. The different timelines makes it easy for both of us to be right.

I have no trouble at all believe in the proposition that there will be good cash flow for months to a few years. And the longer that these relatively high prices for oil go on, the more I like the fracking sector in that 6 mon to 3 year timeframe (however far out futures go). To the degree that the companies specializing in fracking for oil are buying up those futures is the degree to which I like any individual company.

As has been pointed out upthread - they can sell future production today and lock in an excellent price for oil. And as I see it they're doing so with the willing agreement of OPEC+. It's a difficult place OPEC+ finds themselves in - turn the spigots and pump like crazy and drive the price of oil down. Or reduce their own output and watch the frackers sell current and future production at high share prices ensuring that OPEC+ isn't able to turn the spigots back on and drive the price down. Rock, hard place.

What does OPEC+ do? Do they try to drain their own reserves at the expense of other market participants, even if that means they get a much lower price for them? Or do they hold back, potentially leaving a lot of oil in the ground that never gets extracted? They might actually collect more total revenue this way.
 
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I think there's a million things to invest in across the globe. Why would I go long on something everyone knows is going to zero, even if it's for just a few months? Isn't it far easier to short something everyone agrees is moving toward obsolescence?

Your logic reminds me of the early Tesla shorts. Yes TSLA was clear deeply "overvalued" in 2014 using any rational metrics.....but we knew it's continued growth and success was a near certainty. Why a short specialist would target something that could so clearly burn you for 10x is beyond me. There are far easier targets for shorting.

I guess some people just like a challenge. I see your point that "irrational pricing is irrational pricing", but these companies are overvalued even if profitable oil extraction weren't ending. I mean......Chevron is worth $200B and might clear $15-35B in total profits from now til eternity. If they're extremely lucky. That could go to zero any day, just like all of coal did.
Chevron is still undervalued according to the analysts RBC uses, and 29 out of 29 have it as a Hold > Buy > Strong Buy. Literally not one analyst listed by RBC has Chevron as a Sell right now.

I think people should buy what they know and understand, that's at the core of my investing philosophy. If you know something and are watching for opportunities, and you buy things for less than what you know they're worth, then it's pretty tough to go wrong. COVID-19 was likely a once-in-a-lifetime thing, but I had been watching oil companies for two years leading up to it just waiting for an opportunity to strike.

This is the Graham & Dodd and Warren Buffett style of investing, and I've been holding some of these stocks for almost a year and a half which is way beyond what people tend to hold stocks for nowadays. I'd buy Tesla as a hedge against my O&G holdings but it's overvalued IMHO and I don't buy things that are trading at a price that can't be rationalized, others can play the growth/momentum game.


Shorting is also something I would leave up to others, why short when you can just buy stuff you understand
 
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On topic:

^ Pond Tech is engaged in the sale and licensing of its CO2 abatement technology to project developers, funders, engineering companies, and others in partnership with industrial emitters.

News:

agreement allows Pond to clean up its balance sheet, by removing the liability surrounding the legacy oil and gas assets included within the initial go public transaction. As a company focused on addressing growing sustainability challenges

This company is working closely with O&G industry to provide a future path to continued production, ie. to reduce carbon "intensity"
enables industrial emitters to generate new revenue streams from the transformation of underutilized CO2 to valuable algae-based products, such as protein for animal feed and nutraceutical products like Chlorella, Spirulina, and Astaxanthin for human consumption.

It seems logical to me that Canadian companies would want to play in this realm, considering Canada (where I live) talks out of both sides of it's mouth (Alberta vs Quebec) when the environment is concerned.

My financial advisor commented that my insistence on divesting from anything related to legacy extraction and focusing on future innovation was also starting to take hold elsewhere in his client base. I was also ahead of my peer group on transitioning to electric cars, solar and heat pumps. These things will dramatically affect dominance of O&G over the next two decades.