Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Shorting Oil, Hedging Tesla

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Honestly, I think the Saudis should just keep growing production and revel in the fact that their reserve is the largest and lowest cost reserve in the world. One way or another this will shrink R/P to the point that oversupply will be halted. Another way to understand this glut is that we have a glut of reserves that can only be resolved by decline in price. Until the glut of reserves is resolved, the glut of production will persist.

Is this the path to maximum total return you see for the Saudis if perma-decline hits in 2022? I'd be really interested in seeing how Saudi strategies affect all major players once reality(the end) is commonplace in about 2 years. If everyone at the policy level finally acquiesces to the fact of oil's decline, what's the strategy for non-Saudi players? It makes no sense to pump if you're only getting $26, your costs are $29, and the end is clearly on the horizon.

I see no alternative but to pump for the Saudis once we're all living in reality. 2 more years of $45 oil and the Saudis will be so broke and desperate that they'll have no choice but to take the logical route to maximum revenue. They can afford to play around now, but they're losing half a billion dollars a day. That's dead broke in 2-3 years if the IPO isn't successful. The only other path is tightening like crazy and losing the throne.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
Is this the path to maximum total return you see for the Saudis if perma-decline hits in 2022? I'd be really interested in seeing how Saudi strategies affect all major players once reality(the end) is commonplace in about 2 years. If everyone at the policy level finally acquiesces to the fact of oil's decline, what's the strategy for non-Saudi players? It makes no sense to pump if you're only getting $26, your costs are $29, and the end is clearly on the horizon.

I see no alternative but to pump for the Saudis once we're all living in reality. 2 more years of $45 oil and the Saudis will be so broke and desperate that they'll have no choice but to take the logical route to maximum revenue. They can afford to play around now, but they're losing half a billion dollars a day. That's dead broke in 2-3 years if the IPO isn't successful. The only other path is tightening like crazy and losing the throne.

I think the basic problem is that the Saudis (and many others) do not really believe that peak demand will come within 10 years. They think they've got 20 years or so. Denial runs deep, and the Saudi royalty may well not retain political control over the Kingdom.

But let's think through a peak 2022 scenario. Firstly, for that to happen, the disruption would need to be fast moving. So once demand start to decline it drops off rapidly. Perhaps by 2027 oil is falling more than 4% per year. The pace at which things flips is critical. The one advantage Saudis and their neighbors in UAE have is the lowest cost of production. Thus, they are in the best position to tolerate low prices. What screws this advantage up is having alot of competition that is operating at a loss. Competing supply that operates at a loss would be driving down the price below equilibrium. So the biggest risk the Saudis face is the presence of a lot of marginal supply exiting the peak. So what this means is that the Saudis have about 5 years to drive weak, marginal competitors out of the market. If they can clear the market before the big decline, then they have a reasonable chance of fetching a reasonable price post peak. Contrary to this strategy, they are trying to prop up the price which simply keeps marginal producers in play. They are drilling wells now that will be unprofitable and will suppress prices post peak. It's time for the children to get out of the pool, but the Saudis are not blowing the whistle and clearing the pool.

So what should other oil producers be doing? First don't waste capital on exploration or long term infrastructure. Be prepared to buy up distressed assets instead. Second, drive down your breakeven costs. Technology may help. Know how low you can go and hedge against the price going lower, because it will. Third, avoid pivoting to natural gas and the gathering LNG glut. As the price of distillates fall, this will out a cap on LNG, and it is much cheaper to ship than LNG. We will see petroleum turn to the electricity and heat markets. Fourth, buy Tesla. Fifth, divest oil assets. Sixth, buy more Tesla. Seventh, keep buying Tesla.
 
I think the basic problem is that the Saudis (and many others) do not really believe that peak demand will come within 10 years. They think they've got 20 years or so.

They certainly are not alone in their thinking:

The World Is Millions Of Barrels Away From Peak Oil | OilPrice.com

In some (twisted) way I even agree with this sentence in the article:

But actual oil consumption numbers suggest that peak demand for oil won’t happen soon, and when it does happen it will do so at a demand millions of barrels per day (BPD) higher than current demand.

So in my mind the investment thesis is quite clear: peak demand at lower oil prices will be later than peak demand at $150/barrel. And we know from the coal industry that capital / investments go bust much earlier in time than actual production goes bust. And here lies the problem: we don't win anything if bankrupt / chapter 11 companies keep pumping.

In short: how can we truly kill coal and oil zombies, i.e. make sure that companies who are not profitable any longer stop polluting? In my mind that points to a carbon tax...
 
Ohhh, so the Chinese ZEV mandate stayed at 8%,10%,12%, fun times ahead

all quiet on the Tesla/China front, I suspect China opinion is that China does not need Tesla, but that Tesla needs China. Probable impasse is the likelihood that the 50% partner needs to be Chinese automotive, and not just Chinese.
 
http://www.carbontracker.org/wp-con...2D-of-separation_PRI-CTI_report_correct_2.pdf

This report from carbon tracker is worth discussing. They look at oil and gas projects at 69 of the largest oil and gas companies. They place these on a supply cost curve by breakeven price. From this they are able to determine the price level below which projects are consistent with a 2D (2 degree centigrade) climate scenario and above which are in excess of hitting the 2D scenario. So in a rational process none of the projects above that 2D threshold would ever get done. This is about 1/3 of capital for all projects.

What I found most interesting was the last section on NPV sensitivity to the average price of oil from 2017 to 2025. At $60/noe, the 2D compliant projects have an NPV of about $0.3T (assuming 10% diacount), while the NPV of BAU pursuit of all projects have an NPV of -$1.1T. That is, the inclusion of projects not within the 2D scenario destroy some $1.4T of value with the price of oil at $60/b (Brent). At $40/b, even the 2D consistent projects have a negative NPV, -$0.25T. For BAU to breakeven, oil needs to be at $80/b, but even here 2D compliant only has greater value than BAU, $1T vs $0.2T.

So this drives home the value of a controlled wind down of the industry. If there is a way of coordinating to avoid projects above the 2D mark, then prices need not collapse under excessive oversupply and what is left is of higher NPV even if there were no impact on prices. This seems to go a long ways toward why it is in the interest of oil companies to have the US continue to participate in the Paris aggreements.

But looking at raw economics, this report also suggests that the above 2D projects are already a loss, and pursuing them would only destroy more value for all market producers. If the average oil price remains below $60/b. This whole oil industry is just about worthless on an NPV basis. This of course is assumming that some projects with breakeven prices above $60/b are in fact pursued. But this is a verey real risk for all participants that remain in the market. A perpetual oil glut is a negative sum game. This should be sobering enough, even if climate change were a non-issue.

The positive side to this analysis is that if EVs and other means of cutting demand can keep the price of oil below $60/b, then economic forces will tend to reduce the supply to a point below a 2D scenario. While the price is below $50/b, only the most stupid players would even consider projects with a breakeven above $60/b. And the stupid will be rightly punished if prices remain below $60. The 2D threshold is about $85/b.

So this is the basic challenge for Tesla. It does not have to replace all this oil; rather, it merely needs to soften demand enough that the price of oil stays below $60/b. Eventually low oil prices will lead reductions in supply, and reductions in combustion will follow. And oddly enough, any producer that increases supply below $60/b is also helping to put a cap on oil prices, minimize malinvestment, and buying time for EVs to catch up on volume displacement.
 
This has to be one of the most awesome threads. I was just pointing out to my wife how by following this thread it saved my investment money. And taught me a ton about how the oil markets work (or not work).

After following this thread for quite a while, I sold out an energy fund at the end of April with an 8% loss, and switched it all into TSLA. Now that money is up 22%. I just checked the fund for sh**s and giggles. It continued to go down, and if I had held on to it, my loss would be 16-17% instead.

Thanks!
 
I'm copyrighting the term "baseload wealth", the 24/7 sucking sound heard for the last 120 years as fossil interests build a consumption world around us entirely for their benefit. Baseload wealth is rapidly eroding and the valve may already be mostly closed. Coal makes no real money, oil may be done making money, LNG is going to be only marginally profitable.

Will Putin make money on a net basis from here on out?
The Saudi's?
Exxon-Mobil?
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden and ggies07
all quiet on the Tesla/China front, I suspect China opinion is that China does not need Tesla, but that Tesla needs China. Probable impasse is the likelihood that the 50% partner needs to be Chinese automotive, and not just Chinese.

Tesla has apparently outright rejected a partnership with Chinese automotive. The rumors say they're open to a partnership with a Chinese company which does not manufacture cars.

I suspect that's going to be a hard and fast line. China will have to take it or leave it. Tesla's just fine with exporting to China with 25% tarriffs and will still take a significant percentage of the market.
 
Tesla has apparently outright rejected a partnership with Chinese automotive. The rumors say they're open to a partnership with a Chinese company which does not manufacture cars.

I suspect that's going to be a hard and fast line. China will have to take it or leave it. Tesla's just fine with exporting to China with 25% tarriffs and will still take a significant percentage of the market.

Source please?
 
Oh God, I am so bad at keeping source links. Search for the article; it says they're talking to Shanghai government and specifically rejected a partnership with SAIC.

The reason I asked for a source was that the only references I have seen that reported that were totally unreliable and did not quote sources.

The reliable sources I have seen reported exactly the opposite. Tesla Working With Shanghai to Explore Auto Making in China

Wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.
 
The reason I asked for a source was that the only references I have seen that reported that were totally unreliable and did not quote sources.

The reliable sources I have seen reported exactly the opposite. Tesla Working With Shanghai to Explore Auto Making in China

Wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.
I think you did miss something. I don't remember where I read this, but it said specifically that they were talking to Shanghai about a partnership with a government owned firm, and considering the Shanghai Port Authority as a partner, but that they had explicitly rejected SAIC. This was specifically sourced to an anonymous leaker inside the Shanghai government, so take it for what it's worth, but that's an awfully specific claim.

And the claim fits with Tesla's attitude, to my mind: they don't want any connection with a company which makes ICE cars. (They might feel differently about an electric-only local company.)
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Lessmog