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Certainly, Tesla could work towards pricing such that the margin on both $70k vehicles is comparable,

Model 3 at 500k-1M units per year is going to have comparable margins at $70k than a base Model S at 75k-100k units per year?

And Model Y at 1M-2M units per year is going to have comparable margins at $75k than a base X?

It defies all automotive economies of scale that we know of.

If you want to Roll like a Boss you gotta pay the Shot Caller's Price.
 
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Model 3 at 500k-1M units per year is going to have comparable margins at $70k than a base Model S at 75k-100k units per year?

And Model Y at 1M-2M units per year is going to have comparable margins at $75k than a base X?

It defies all automotive economies of scale that we know of.

If you want to Roll like a Boss you gotta pay the Shot Caller's Price.
Well it seems to me that a 70kWh RWD drivetrain ought to cost less to make than a 75kWh performance AWD drivetrain. For the rest of the vehicle you've got a strip down large sedan versus a fully loaded midsize sedan. AP and software is the same. The S has larger consoles and power lift. So I'm not seeing what exactly makes the base S inherently more costly to manufacture than a fully loaded 3.

Maybe currently you've got more labor inputs to the Model S, but we are also talking about the opportunity to refresh the S design and build it in China. So much of the redesign can focus on making it easier to manufacture, and the manufacturing economics particularly for labor input can be more favorable in China than California. So I think there is alot of opportunity to take down the cost of the Model S.

It would also be good just to free up some capacity at the Fremont plant to focus on newer products. So I could see China supplying Model S/X to all markets beyond North America.
 
Well it seems to me that a 70kWh RWD drivetrain ought to cost less to make than a 75kWh performance AWD drivetrain. For the rest of the vehicle you've got a strip down large sedan versus a fully loaded midsize sedan. AP and software is the same. The S has larger consoles and power lift. So I'm not seeing what exactly makes the base S inherently more costly to manufacture than a fully loaded 3.

Maybe currently you've got more labor inputs to the Model S, but we are also talking about the opportunity to refresh the S design and build it in China. So much of the redesign can focus on making it easier to manufacture, and the manufacturing economics particularly for labor input can be more favorable in China than California. So I think there is alot of opportunity to take down the cost of the Model S.

It would also be good just to free up some capacity at the Fremont plant to focus on newer products. So I could see China supplying Model S/X to all markets beyond North America.

Model 3 and Model Y will also be built in China.

Again, economies of scale not making a single Model 3 powertrain vs a single S powertrain.

Model S mostly aluminum platform. Model 3 a lot of steel.

Model S five door liftback sedan with automated hatch. Model 3 sedan with manual trunk. Making a tube with 5 holes rigid is more expensive than making a 3 box design.

It seems Tesla thinks cost of instrument cluster is a big deal and felt it needed to take out of the Model 3. No heated steering wheel in Model 3.

$70k Model 3 is IMO going to have 40% plus profit margins.

$70k Model S is IMO going to have sub 20% profit margins.
 
EV Revolution Could Wipe Out $21 Trillion In Oil Revenue | OilPrice.com

Hmm, here is an interesting scenario where EVs comprise about 27% of the fleet in service in 2040. I think it will be 2 to 3 times this level, but what I appreciate here is that this scenario seems to take seriously the oil price impact. Some $21T in revenue over the next two decades are at stake just with having EVs supply a quarter of the fleet.

They are also dismal economic prospects for coal, but they are pretty bullish about natural gas. They envision it as taking share from oil and coal. I think they may well be underestimating how the batteries that drive change in the auto industry will also disrupt the grid too.

One final note, these analysts recognize that these changes will not so much be driven by policy but by technology and consumer choice. That recognition is a huge step forward in understanding just how fierce this transition can get.

Here's to burning out some $21T in oil revenue!
 
Model 3 and Model Y will also be built in China.

Again, economies of scale not making a single Model 3 powertrain vs a single S powertrain.

Model S mostly aluminum platform. Model 3 a lot of steel.

Model S five door liftback sedan with automated hatch. Model 3 sedan with manual trunk. Making a tube with 5 holes rigid is more expensive than making a 3 box design.

It seems Tesla thinks cost of instrument cluster is a big deal and felt it needed to take out of the Model 3. No heated steering wheel in Model 3.

$70k Model 3 is IMO going to have 40% plus profit margins.

$70k Model S is IMO going to have sub 20% profit margins.

Agree, how much profit would be in a $70k mercedes S class? Vs how much profit would be in a $70k CamCordTima (with $10k of batteries slung underneath)?
 
speaking of big auto

toyota is doubling down on H2 (yet again) Toyota moves to expand mass-production of fuel cell stacks and hydrogen tanks towards ten-fold increase post-2020 - Automotive World

toyota is clarifying that 2020 for solid state batteries really kinda means 2030 for solid state batteries http://wardsauto.com/alternative-evs-hevs-fcvs/toyota-solid-state-batteries-likely-arrive-2030

due to Chinese pressure, Toyota will sell GAC branded EVs in Toyota showrooms in China Toyota will roll into China's EV market in a GAC Motor vehicle

for context, GAC produces quite good product and sells it under the brand name Trumpchi
广汽传祺-广汽传祺官网-广汽传祺官网

GS3 ev 47kWh battery
GS3 phev
GS4 phev

FWIW none of these were in top 20 NEV sales in China

(so the take away is, Toyota is still so distasteful of EVs, that they will sell EVs using someone else's logo but not their own.)
its incredible, isn't it?

Chinese ramp for New Energy Vehicles is ignition this year, and lift off next year. too late to still be playing games.
 
Saudi Arabia has significantly increased exports in the second half of May, which will hit inventories in late July.

This will not, however, even be enough to cover the demand jump in late June to early July.

I continue to expect $100+ Brent later this year.
 
Price elasticity of demand

[Thailand] "A major inter-provincial bus operator has told the Department of Land Transport it is having to cut its service by 30% due to the impact from soaring diesel prices."

Large bus firm announces cutbacks
Wow, this is more than just buses. Ferries and farm equipment are becoming more expensive to operate and cutting back service. It's not hard to see the systemic damage to an economy like this. Sadly as the price of oil climbs, families in poor economies will go hungry. If you can't afford bus fare, how are you going to feed your family?

This illustrates why electric buses and renewable energy are critically important in underdeveloped countries. These economies have a very hard time weathering surges in fuel prices. Buses powered by renewable energy can secure essential transport services where the cost is not subject to fuel price volatility.

Sadly Bankok needed to buy these electric buses last year and the year before that.
 
Price elasticity of demand

[Thailand] "A major inter-provincial bus operator has told the Department of Land Transport it is having to cut its service by 30% due to the impact from soaring diesel prices."

Large bus firm announces cutbacks

You missed the important bit:

Bangkok Post said:
Chaiwat Wongbencharat, managing director of Nakhonchai Tour, said the surge in price and the Transport Ministry's rejection of a provincial bus fare hike will force the company to run fewer buses on some routes as it is unable to bear the increasing financial burden on account of rising fuel prices.

Also, he said it was reasonable for the ministry to agree to a fare increase as public transport operators have collected fares based on a 19.69 baht per litre diesel price set on Feb 15, 2016.

Existing fares do not reflect the actual cost of operating a bus service with the diesel price hitting 30 baht per litre today, he said. According to Mr Chaiwat, the firm and its affiliated company, Nakhonchai 21, currently operate 130 buses which consume more than 500,000 litres of diesel each month.

It's not "high diesel prices force service cutbacks", it's "government price controls force service cutbacks". Similar to the impact of fixed fuel taxes.
 
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Wow, this is more than just buses. Ferries and farm equipment are becoming more expensive to operate and cutting back service. It's not hard to see the systemic damage to an economy like this. Sadly as the price of oil climbs, families in poor economies will go hungry. If you can't afford bus fare, how are you going to feed your family?

This illustrates why electric buses and renewable energy are critically important in underdeveloped countries. These economies have a very hard time weathering surges in fuel prices. Buses powered by renewable energy can secure essential transport services where the cost is not subject to fuel price volatility.

Sadly Bankok needed to buy these electric buses last year and the year before that.
There's the old canard: "We lose money on every hamburger but we'll make it up in volume." (The saying apparently dates back to the great depression era ca. 1933). I assume they are cramming more utilization into the seats on the buses (just like airlines, I guess, which are now almost always full), which might help profitability but usually precedes a decline in their customer base.
 
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You missed the important bit:



It's not "high diesel prices force service cutbacks", it's "government price controls force service cutbacks". Similar to the impact of fixed fuel taxes.
That's a good distinction, but either way we are talking about demand response to rising prices. The difference is whether the government or consumers decide. Cutting service by 30% will reduce ridership, but allowing the fares to increase would also reduce ridership, which in turn would likely result in service reduction. So either way you wind up with both reduced ridership and reduced service levels, both due to a 50% in fuel prices.

In terms of impact on oil demand, this policy will induce a diesel consumption reduction from 500kl per month to maybe 350kl. Arguably allowing the bus company to raise rates could have sustained higher consumption levels. Such a policy would be more favorable for oil interests, but the social downside could have been forcing the most economically vulnerable riders to go without any motorized transport. Imagine being a poorly paid worker who must cut back on food for your family so that you can pay higher bus fare to get to work. If you're a well paid worker, and the buses become intollerably crowded, then you may have other options using private passenger vehicles or commercial shuttles. This, of course, could result in higher demand for gasoline and private transport. But this comes down to consumers deciding between crowded and less frequent buses with low fares or other more expensive but more comfortable and convenient alternatives.

The real damage here is that the diesel buses will lose value as assets of the bus company. They start withba fleet of 130 buses. A 30% service reduction implies that a fleet of 91 to 100 buses is all they need for reduced operations. To sustain a 130 bus fleet well utilized requires replacing about 8 to 10 old buses with new each year. So at a reduced service level, this company will be able to avoid buying new buses for 3 to 4 years. So the government policy is effectively forcing the bus company to canabalize long term assets (bus fleet) to sustain cash flow for operations. Cash spent on higher fuel prices is cutting into cash that would have into refreshing the fleet.

It is interesting to think through the long term implications. First this is very bad for diesel bus makers. Global demand for new diesel buses could plummet. In the short run this is not particularly good for electric bus makers either because fleets of transit buses are oversupplied and used buses are cheap. But longer term as demand for new buses pick back up, i suspect that electrics will be the most compelling option out there. BEV buses offer maximal protection against high fuel cost. Diesel and CNG buses are vulnerable to this loss of value, and the pain of that value loss will be quite present in the memory of fleet mangers and policymakers.

So this Bankok company could see its fossil fleet of 130 shrink to 100 over the next 4 years, but it may never build it back up with new fossil buses. Rather it will be build back up with electric buses, and the fleet of 100 diesel buses will continue to decline 8 to 10 buses ear year.

This kind of dynamic illustrates the potential for a surge in diesel price to bring about a permanent reduction in diesel demand. Fleet assets that are devalued by a rise in diesel prices might never be replaced with diesel consuming asset even as diesel price come back down.

This risk is made even worse by the effect of the IMO low sulfur maritime fuel rule. As the oil industry retools to make more diesel and less residual fuel, the price of diesel will sustain upward pressure for many years, maybe out to mid-2020. So the whole diesel fleet is imperiled to lose value and ultimately be replaced by electric assets.
 
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You missed the important bit:



It's not "high diesel prices force service cutbacks", it's "government price controls force service cutbacks". Similar to the impact of fixed fuel taxes.
Looks like the government wants to deny reality. They want to keep transport costs low (an admirable goal) but don't want to pay for it. They want the private operators to pay for it.
The long term solution is electric buses. If the government or the private companies were forward thinking, they would invest in electric buses or subsidize their purchase. Probably not going to happen.
 
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These are not city busses, these are long distance between provinces. Are there currently electric busses in the market that are practical for this type of service?
I've actually been on some of these busses. Many go for around an hour from surrounding provinces into Bangkok, commuting for work in the morning. There are some longer distance busses too but it's a mix.
pic.jpg
 
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These are not city busses, these are long distance between provinces. Are there currently electric busses in the market that are practical for this type of service?
These are coming on. Proterra has long range buses, up to 426 mile range (Proterra | Catalyst 40-Foot Transit Vehicle). I would expect other bus makers are keeping pace. Proterra even has a motorcoach in development with a 600 mile range. This is on par with what Tesla is doing with the semi. Certainly in the next 4 years well long distance motorcoaches and all shorter range buses will be quite available.

The economics of electric buses are driven by fuel savings and lower maintenace cost. This has been cost competitive for several years now, even while diesel has been cheap and batteries expensive, though the expensive of batteries have favored charging small batteries frequently. Looking ahead a few years, batteries keep dropping near 20%/year and diesel will be expensive. So this is an enormous headwind to help electric buses break through complacency and inertia. Same goes for trucks.

No doubt natural gas will want to get in on this action with CNG and LNG vehicles. But early testing on the economic performance of batrery electric municipal buses was actually against CNG buses that were already more cost effective than diesel buses. The electrics handily beat CNG alternatives. Thus, I'm not terribly concerned about electrics losing to CNG competition. The bigger problem is ramping up production. We actually be CNG and LNG vehicles to step in just supply the production capacity gap. Long term I think batteries will displace natural gas vehicle, but priority goes to getting dirty diesel off the road.

Fun fact, a battery electric bus using electricity generated from natural gas gets more miles per mmBtu of gas than does a comparable CNG bus. This is because a combined cycle gas plant is much more efficient than NG in an ICE. So even countries that must import LNG to generate power are better served by BE buses.
 
Not sure if OPEC+R is showing signs of breaking up yet, but eventually it will. There is too much money to be made in these last 5 years. How long will individual countries hold back much needed revenue so the Saudis can achieve their goals?

US frackers must be signing contracts hand over fist while prices are so elevated, we're getting all the increnental share while folks like Russia starve for revenue. Not gonna last....

Oil prices ease after Russia says it may gradually raise output