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Should EVs have efficiency standards?

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But why draw the line at EV vs ICE? Why not between gas vs diesel? Or trucks vs sedans? Or an F150 vs F250? Or...
Those distinctions are already there. Trucks are considered differently - because if not, then cars would skate by.

Therefore we need regulations to make EVs more efficient, otherwise they will skate by. We do agree that using less energy is better, right? Model 3 is significanly more energy efficient than Leaf or i3 - shouldn't they have to improve on that?

So goes the argument of regulators for regulations. I say get rid of them all - the costly regulations, along with the regulators.
 
Why is the MPGe for the Leaf and i3 so much less than the Model 3?
Tesla has the best motor tech. You're delusional if you think that Nissan isn't ripping apart Model 3 to try to make the next generation Leaf more efficient.
I'm against regulations on MPGe (and MPG), I just don't understand why people are in favor of them for ICE by not EV.
The market is already forcing EVs to be efficient. There is no problem that regulation would solve.
Screen Shot 2019-12-04 at 1.31.43 PM.png
 
You're delusional if you think that Nissan isn't ripping apart Model 3 to try to make the next generation Leaf more efficient.
Just like ICE manufacturers. Of course, when they ripped apart VW they found the real secret.
Honda Civic MPG has improved in 7 years too. Let's get rid of the efficiency regulations - not needed.

The market is already forcing EVs to be efficient. There is no problem that regulation would solve.
I think we agree.

The market is already forcing ICE to be efficient. There is no problem that regulation would solve.

So let's simply get rid of the efficiency regulations.
 
The market is already forcing ICE to be efficient.
There is some evidence that you are wrong especially with regards to light trucks (which are mostly US specific models, for cars it's harder to tell since most are sold worldwide and must meet EU fuel economy standards). Fuel economy hardly improved at all when the fuel economy standards were flat but improved dramatically when new standards were created. You seem philosophically opposed to government regulation which is fine. I'm still not sure how this is related to the Cybertruck.
xfotw870_0.png.pagespeed.ic.cK2imZtysh.png

Fact #870: April 27, 2015 Corporate Average Fuel Economy Progress, 1978-2014
 
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Ok MPGe...

Typically the "intention" of regulation is to ensure that both producers and consumers are offered protection under an act of government, so that all parties involved are offered the same opportunities without one being benefited more than another, or that one is not subjected to forceful participation to anothers benefit.

In the scheme of things economic "customer is king". Sometimes a foolish king. There is a valid argument to be made that consumers should be educated, so that they can make valid decisions based on facts, or at a minimum the best of the current knowledge. To that end a regulation, or the specific "intentional management" under guidance of government can be helpful, if also the body governing is of equal statue in competence as the state of the art. Sadly this is seldom the case, as one needs not to be qualified for a public position. Most consumers hold equal qualifications.... ;-)

On that basis I'd postulate that "regulations" are of poor value overall and only offer very little education or appropriate control, let alone are not cost effective in any form.

Despite that, when it comes to physics, and the definition of efficiency and how that compares between similar products, there is most definitely a reason to have standards, that are agreed on, (like kg, pound, kW etc) in order to evaluate their effectiveness. And to persuade consumers that should know better.

In the case of MPGe, I'd like to assert the position that a standard of measurement already exists for all forms of transport, both fuel or battery powered etc in the form of wh/mile (or km).

How we incorporate life cycle costs is of a completely different magnitude, and to do that you first have to define cost and also pollution. Nature, nor physics, operate under those terms and ignores them both with equal disdain.
(By definition C02 is not pollution if measures are taken to cycle it)

For example solar PV has more embodied emissions than fossil natural gas used in a CHP generator. Or the primary cause of heat retention in the atmosphere is water vapor. The largest heat store are our oceans, which are poorly understood and monitored. Further solar PV is only affordable because cheap fossil are still subsidizing its cost of manufacturing and distribution, mostly from China that leverage their currency to maintain dominance. Let alone government subsidies for industry, or taxes that promote unethical behavior, by producing levers that profit certain industries over another.

The point is that there are so many convoluted and co-dependant systems that it is nearly pointless to pursue a accurate model of lifecycle costs so that a effective determination can be made. Be that for either fuel or electric vehicles. And we haven't even started on the reasons for human behavior, like the fallacy of ownership to incite trade, or the lack of environmental cost on corporate balance sheets, the aging world population, fiat currency, debt bubbles, cyberwarfare, deep fakes, AI or that Netflix produces 5-6% of the worlds pollution etc etc...

IMHO all this has nothing to do with the proposed aerodynamics of the cybertruck, and needs its own thread. Happy to discuss CT Cd calculations here...and the validity of regulation on another thread.
 
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Generally, yes. Absolutely when they decide to regulate ICE efficiency but not EV efficiency. Still unclear why they care about efficiency - because of our historical dependence on oil and the national security threat that is no longer exists??
I think they are necessary to prevent oil price shocks from hurting our economy.
Though I did appreciate the major drop in traffic during the last price shock. :p
 
Hard to say. There hasn't been another big oil price shock since the CAFE standards were raised. US oil consumption has dropped over the last decade so that's good.
CAFE standards and drop in oil consumption may have some neglible impact on oil prices - I think the greatly increased domestic production over the past several years is what has insulated us from oil price shocks. I think we are producing more oil than we consume for the first time since the 1950s.

I don't think it is because cars (and CT) are more aerodynamic or use less fuel.
 
CAFE standards and drop in oil consumption may have some neglible impact on oil prices - I think the greatly increased domestic production over the past several years is what has insulated us from oil price shocks. I think we are producing more oil than we consume for the first time since the 1950s.

I don't think it is because cars (and CT) are more aerodynamic or use less fuel.
I'm not saying CAFE standards significantly change the price of oil, I'm saying that they reduce the shock to the economy when oil prices rise. The US is the biggest oil producer now and that certainly reduces the likelihood of an oil price shock since we're stable and not a member of a cartel. However unless we regulate gas prices like Venezuela we're still subject to the fluctuations of the global market. That strategy has not proven to be a good idea by countries that have tried it.
 
I'm not saying CAFE standards significantly change the price of oil, I'm saying that they reduce the shock to the economy when oil prices rise.
CAFE standards have been around since 1975. Let's get rid of them and find out - I don't think they have had any impact on reducing the shock to the economy when oil prices have risen over the past 44 years, and won't going forward.
 
CAFE standards have been around since 1975. Let's get rid of them and find out - I don't think they have had any impact on reducing the shock to the economy when oil prices have risen over the past 44 years, and won't going forward.
Inflation adjusted oil prices are almost exactly the same as they were 44 years ago. It's hard to prove a counterfactual but maybe if we had tightened CAFE standards in the two decades before the 2008 oil price spike the great recession wouldn't have been as bad.
Ideally I'd like a carbon tax to put everything on equal footing but CAFE standards are a more politically popular way to reduce our economy's dependence on fossil fuels,
 
I don't understand why you guys are still arguing about this.

As @Daniel in SD already said...

It's pretty obvious that if you make an inefficient EV you will just go out of business immediately because it makes the vehicle a lot more expensive and un-competitive.

Whereas if you make an inefficient gas vehicle, it will be a lot cheaper (and probably dirtier) and the additional costs will be borne by the consumer over the long term, which consumers are really bad at figuring out.

We don't live in a libertarian/capitalist utopia. People are generally pretty dense and can't make intelligent decisions on their own. That's what government is for.

But what does this have to do with Cybertruck's CD?
 
CAFE standards have been around since 1975. Let's get rid of them and find out - I don't think they have had any impact on reducing the shock to the economy when oil prices have risen over the past 44 years, and won't going forward.

Why get rid of them when the autos they impact will be virtually phased out over the next decade or two?

ICE will have a bit of a revival (or maybe I should say less of a downturn) when EVs become popular enough to reduce the fuel consumption of ICE which will make the price of gas drop. That will make it harder for EVs to compete on an economic basis and people will want to hold onto their trusty vehicles. Then once EVs become more widely utilized the support network for ICE vehicles will be on its way to shutting down making it hard to get parts for and service and the ICE market will crash. I really don't think it will be a gentile slope of adoption.

I think it will be more than 10 years, but not more than 20.
 
How do you figure?
Same way you do.
Why get rid of them when the autos they impact will be virtually phased out over the next decade or two?
Then why keep them?
People are generally pretty dense and can't make intelligent decisions on their own. That's what government is for.
That is a joke, right?
But what does this have to do with Cybertruck's CD?
Fuel efficiency - only Tesla seems to care. Everyone else is creating electron guzzlers.
 
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Same way you do.
You really support your arguments well.:rolleyes:
Fuel efficiency - only Tesla seems to care. Everyone else is creating electron guzzlers.
Ha. Tesla has the worst vampire drain in the industry by far. By their own admission the car uses about 1kWh a day just sitting there and it's often much higher. This is my beef with MPGe ratings. They're accurate for long trips but they don't really include vampire drain or HVAC. I bet if you looked at actual wall-to-wheel efficiency for someone driving 12k miles a year Tesla would be worse than GM or Hyundai (There's a thread from someone with both a Model 3 and a Bolt that documents this). Rant over. :p
 
Fuel efficiency - only Tesla seems to care. Everyone else is creating electron guzzlers.

I hope you're right that only Tesla cares about electron efficiency. Would be good for TSLA. Pretty sure you're not right that others don't care though - others are just having a hard time catching up. Won't rehash the vampire drain issue mentioned above.

If your primary goal is to conserve electrons, you won't be interested in Cybertruck.

That is a joke, right?

Not really. I'm from California; government can do no wrong. ;)