Should EVs have efficiency standards?

[juliusa]

You really support your arguments well.

Ha. Tesla has the worst vampire drain in the industry by far. By their own admission the car uses about 1kWh a day just sitting there and it's often much higher. This is my beef with MPGe ratings. They're accurate for long trips but they don't really include vampire drain or HVAC. I bet if you looked at actual wall-to-wheel efficiency for someone driving 12k miles a year Tesla would be worse than GM or Hyundai (There's a thread from someone with both a Model 3 and a Bolt that documents this). Rant over.

So the government should get involved??

 

[juliusa]

Why get rid of them when the autos they impact will be virtually phased out over the next decade or two?

Because will get phased out. Why whip a dead horse (and make the manufacturers invest in something with no future and no return)?

Wouldn't it be better for manufacturers to invest in EVs rather than some marginal improvements in ICE that are going away? Elon never bothered with hybrids....

 

[Daniel in SD]

So the government should get involved??

Yes, I would like the EPA to include vampire drain and HVAC in the MPGe ratings.
I think that simply including vampire drain in MPGe numbers would be enough to force manufacturers to minimize it but I suppose I might support regulation if it isn't.

 

[juliusa]

Yes, I would like the EPA to include vampire drain and HVAC in the MPGe ratings.
I think that simply including vampire drain in MPGe numbers would be enough to force manufacturers to minimize it but I suppose I might support regulation if it isn't.

So different MPGe ratings for San Diego and Minneapolis?

Different MPGe ratings for 5,000 miles driven per year, and 50,000 miles driven per year?

I think you are over estimating the capability of the EPA and government in general.

They will simply come up with some other meaningless number applicable to nobody, based on a formula created by lobbyists with the most money.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Yes, I would like the EPA to include vampire drain and HVAC in the MPGe ratings.
I think that simply including vampire drain in MPGe numbers would be enough to force manufacturers to minimize it but I suppose I might support regulation if it isn't.

Hard to include, since it could drive MPGe anywhere from the same highway amount all the way down to 0, depending on how often the car is used.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So different MPGe ratings for San Diego and Minneapolis?

Different MPGe ratings for 5,000 miles driven per year, and 50,000 miles driven per year?

I think you are over estimating the capability of the EPA and government in general.

They will simply come up with some other meaningless number applicable to nobody, based on a formula created by lobbyists with the most money.

No, one MPGe number for the average driver in the average climate. I suppose with all the model data you could create a calculator that an individual could use to calculate their expected MPGe.
EPA testing procedures are actually quite detailed. The reason there are cheating scandals is because they are self reported by automakers.

 

[juliusa]

No, one MPGe number for the average driver in the average climate. I suppose with all the model data you could create a calculator that an individual could use to calculate their expected MPGe.
EPA testing procedures are actually quite detailed. The reason there are cheating scandals is because they are self reported by automakers.

So a useless number that the government creates that applies to nobody, and the manufacturers make meaningless adjustments to get a better score that helps nobody.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So a useless number that the government creates that applies to nobody, and the manufacturers make meaningless adjustments to get a better score that helps nobody.

Sounds like a good plan.

It seems like making improvements to vampire drain and hvac efficiency to get a better useless number would actually help a lot of people save energy.

 

[Fredneck]

Because will get phased out. Why whip a dead horse (and make the manufacturers invest in something with no future and no return)?

Wouldn't it be better for manufacturers to invest in EVs rather than some marginal improvements in ICE that are going away? Elon never bothered with hybrids....

You are a busy bee responding twice to the same post.

No one is whipping a dead horse. The standards are useful and there is no reason to get rid of them. The "improvements" you are talking about will be accomplished by dropping the higher fuel consumption models. Win-win.

 

[Fredneck]

It seems like making improvements to vampire drain and hvac efficiency to get a better useless number would actually help a lot of people save energy.

I just did a quick calculation and my car uses around $45 of electricity a year sitting in the driveway. My other vehicles never did that even if I started them up once in a while just to get the oil moving.

 

[David_Cary]

Funny thread. Created by a Libertarian making an argument for more regulation or less ....

While the concept of repealing CAFE is both not going to happen and also a foolish idea, regulating EV efficiency on some level isn't a bad idea. The vampire drain of course has no bearing on range, but it does cost money and use energy. There is really no strong incentive for Tesla to fix this - which is why it still persists even if better than before.

Just like the EPA regulates dishwashers (etc), it makes sense to regulate vampire drain and charging efficiency. Every electron still counts. It doesn't have to be onerous. I would tie it in to a large carbon tax of course or a phase out of ICE production or CAFE doubling.

Just like road use taxes for EVs make sense.

Yes - there is an argument that all incentives should be pro-EV but we also need to look to the future when we are 100% EV. I think many more people would agree for efficiency regulation when we are 100% EV.

CAFE was a response to oil embargo because that actually motivated both sides of the aisle. It then became an environmental issue in addition to an economic one. This along with safety regulations showed all observers that government actually can work to spur innovation by giving goal posts. Goals are good. Innovation is good. Capitalism needs regulation.

But I will agree with Tes-s that EV manufacturers are absolutely not off the hook for regulations. He just happens to argue about it from a, let's say, interesting perspective.

And, BTW, solar is great and all and I am on my second install. But December is an issue everywhere North of the equator. At the end of the first week - I am only generating 33% of my usage from 48 panels. My HERS score is negative but of course that doesn't count cars. Putting another 100 panels somewhere isn't very practical. Which is why a heat pump on the car is a good idea as well as other efficiencies.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm supportive of regulation that requires transparency.
We can start with derivatives, which are about a trillion times more important than my car's vampire drain.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm supportive of regulation that requires transparency.
We can start with derivatives, which are about a trillion times more important than my car's vampire drain.

Are you trying to see how many times a thread can be split?

Anyway, regarding transparency, I bet just including vampire drain in the MPGe number would be enough to get Tesla to fix it for good.
Two cars with the same MPGe should have the same average energy usage.

 

[SageBrush]

Anyway, regarding transparency, I bet just including vampire drain in the MPGe number would be enough to get Tesla to fix it for good.

Perhaps. I think it would just spawn another million useless threads about 'real world' vampire drain.

 

[CSFTN]

I agree - and don't think government intervention is needed. Tesla builds very fuel-efficient EVs.

Same for ICE, right? It is in all ICE manufacturer's best interests to provide vehicles with as low a fuel cost as possible, as that will draw people to buy their product. Again, no government intervention needed.

Except your 2nd detail has been proven false, repeatedly, in the USA. Cost of fueling a vehicle in USA has little to no effect on purchase, until the price of gas is quite high. Then magically it matters. I forget the threshold but more than gas costs now ...

Or was your comment satire?

 

[juliusa]

Or was your comment satire?

Sort of. If we need regulations to make ICE use less energy, then don't we need regulations to make EVs use less energy?

There is an environmental cost to electricity, even if generated by non-carbon sources.

 

[nwdiver]

Sort of. If we need regulations to make ICE use less energy, then don't we need regulations to make EVs use less energy?

No. Because physics. With EVs range is the priority. People DO care about range. It's generally cheaper to make an EV 5% more efficient than add 5% more batteries. Only once efficiency is maximized is battery size increased. Plus there's a lot less efficiency to squeeze out of an electric motor than there is an ICE.

 

[juliusa]

No. Because physics. With EVs range is the priority. People DO care about range. It's generally cheaper to make an EV 5% more efficient than add 5% more batteries. Only once efficiency is maximized is battery size increased. Plus there's a lot less efficiency to squeeze out of an electric motor than there is an ICE.

How do you explain the high wh/mi for some EVs then? Taycan comes to mind, based on EPA rating and battery size.

 

[nwdiver]

How do you explain the high wh/mi for some EVs then? Taycan comes to mind, based on EPA rating and battery size.

Yep... and it's almost certain to hurt sales. If it really only has a 200 mile range I doubt there will be many takers and the next version will almost certainly be better if they want it to sell.

Also... there is an EPA standard EVs are required to meet... 1114wh/mi.

 

[juliusa]

Yep... and it's almost certain to hurt sales. If it really only has a 200 mile range I doubt there will be many takers and the next version will almost certainly be better if they want it to sell.

Also... there is an EPA standard EVs are required to meet... 1114wh/mi.

Why doesn't anyone buy the Hyundai Ioniq, the most energy-efficient EV?

I don't think people are considering range or efficiency when purchasing the Taycan.