Should Tesla fully refund FSD owners in UK

[Jason71]

FSD Beta is now safer than the average US driver, but not the average UK driver, so that criterion isn’t yet met. The regulatory one neither.

I am pretty sure they work this out based on the number of miles per accident that FSD covers vs the average number of miles per accident for a human driver. I have never thought this was a very fair statistic.
Historically all FSD miles were on highways and even now in the US I would bet that the vast vast majority of FSD miles are on multi lane highways.
So if we want to compare the relative safety we need to compare the number of accidents per highway mile on FSD vs Human.
If that is what they are saying then fair enough it may be safer on a highway I honestly don't know. Highways are one of those places where a human can loose concentration or even fall asleep when a computer will not so it is probably the place where at present FSD will have the most chance of beating a human. It is also probably better at keeping a safe distance from the car in front which humans seem to be really really bad at.
however I would also ( for interest sake) like to see the stats broken down by Day/Night/Rain/Fog/Snow to know how FDS performs against a human in ALL circumstances not just sunny days and dry nights which is what you get most of the time in California.
Also if FSD gets into trouble and hands back to the driver seconds before a crash which side are they scoring that on?

 

[Jason71]

....... it is unacceptable in my view that FSD is not transferable when buying a different Tesla. .........

.......This doesn’t really cost Tesla anything unless they unfairly want a customer to buy it successive times.....

I think you answered your own question there

 

[Pink Duck]

Tesla haven’t published a quarterly Safety Report since 2022, so the measure of current competence is statistically loose. FSD Beta has had widespread release to North America, but there’s still only a subset reporting to the FSD Beta Tracker.

 

[KennethS]

I think you answered your own question there

Precisely my point. And why I will pursue a refund or transfer to a new car when we’re done with our 3, despite generally being a fan of Tesla.

 

[MrBadger]

I am pretty sure they work this out based on the number of miles per accident that FSD covers vs the average number of miles per accident for a human driver. I have never thought this was a very fair statistic.
Historically all FSD miles were on highways and even now in the US I would bet that the vast vast majority of FSD miles are on multi lane highways.
So if we want to compare the relative safety we need to compare the number of accidents per highway mile on FSD vs Human.
If that is what they are saying then fair enough it may be safer on a highway I honestly don't know. Highways are one of those places where a human can loose concentration or even fall asleep when a computer will not so it is probably the place where at present FSD will have the most chance of beating a human. It is also probably better at keeping a safe distance from the car in front which humans seem to be really really bad at.
however I would also ( for interest sake) like to see the stats broken down by Day/Night/Rain/Fog/Snow to know how FDS performs against a human in ALL circumstances not just sunny days and dry nights which is what you get most of the time in California.
Also if FSD gets into trouble and hands back to the driver seconds before a crash which side are they scoring that on?

IMHO, they cannot work this out as its not comparing like with like.

Currently everything is driver assist, that is, the driver is also part of the equation.

So all those comparisons give is 'Autopilot + Human' vs 'Human' - you absolutely would expect the former to be safer but there is enough evidence to show that it is not significantly safer.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I am pretty sure they work this out based on the number of miles per accident that FSD covers vs the average number of miles per accident for a human driver. I have never thought this was a very fair statistic.

Although if their statistic is consistent you can compare Last Year / This Year to see if that number is improving.

 

[Js1977]

Full disclosure, voted no because a fool and his money are soon parted... If you need to ask and all that....

 

[Jason71]

Full disclosure, voted no because a fool and his money are soon parted... If you need to ask and all that....

Harsh.
I on the other hand think they all deserve a refund. I am making a note of those going for it and will be DMing them with some great investment oportunities for their refunds. I currently have some great deals on bridges for example

 

[Jason71]

Fun Fact. If anyone who bought FSD in August 2019 had instead bought Tesla shares with the money they would now be worth over £80000......

 

[Js1977]

Harsh.
I on the other hand think they all deserve a refund. I am making a note of those going for it and will be DMing them with some great investment oportunities for their refunds. I currently have some great deals on bridges for example

Dont doubt it for a bit

 

[Wybrook]

Being the eternal optimist I continue to hold hope that eventually FSD will have value in the UK. That said it is unacceptable in my view that FSD is not transferable when buying a different Tesla. It should be at the option of the car owner to leave it on a car being sold or (gulp) scrapped or move it to another Tesla. This doesn’t really cost Tesla anything unless they unfairly want a customer to buy it successive times. Although we don’t plan to sell either of our Tesla for many years I wonder if it might be a negotiated settlement to move it to a new car when that time comes in lieu of a refund. As it stands if we were selling our August 19 delivered 3 I would definitely be taking action against Tesla for a refund.

I’ve no idea if there is or not, but is there any time limit on claiming something was miss sold? i.e. You’ve had it six years and didn’t complain, so you accepted it for what it is, however bad that may be, so you can‘t claim anything back?

 

[Kenners]

If you are a UK driver and don’t want a refund, you’ve lucked out as all the lunatic asylums have been closed!

 

[Pants]

Full disclosure, voted no because a fool and his money are soon parted... If you need to ask and all that....

If I pay in good faith for a service or product and I don’t receive that service or product then I expect to be refunded. Why should Tesla be any different?

 

[Type2]

Full disclosure, voted no because a fool and his money are soon parted... If you need to ask and all that....

Full disclosure, I voted yes because Tesla were downright dishonest in their description of FSD and should be held to account. I’ll be fighting for a refund.

Are you saying everyone who buys FSD is a fool? In defence of those who did back in 2019, including me, not so many people in the Uk at that time realised that Musk talks out of his fundamental orifice. I certainly didn’t realise how much complete crap he’d come out with over the years. The bloke is a fantasist who clearly lives in an alternative reality.

 

[NewbieT]

Something like: Think of the time the breach occurred. Think of when you knew it had occurred or a reasonable person should have known, add on 6 years. Now if you’re getting near that point and I was Tesla I’d be arguing the breach occurred at 12 months from sale, or for driving on city street the 31st Dec that year I.e your claim is timed out. YMMV / don’t take my advice ask a lawyer.

 

[Js1977]

Are you saying everyone who buys FSD is a fool?

Not at all. It's just an old saying. However, It should be correct to say some have allegedly been conned. Having said that Coming up with this thread it appears they are not sure either .

Maybe seek legal advice?.... or just pay for your mistakes

 

[Leytonstone]

Are you saying everyone who buys FSD is a fool? In defence of those who did back in 2019, including me, not so many people in the Uk at that time realised that Musk talks out of his fundamental orifice. I certainly didn’t realise how much complete crap he’d come out with over the years. The bloke is a fantasist who clearly lives in an alternative reality.

The press and weird owners are to blame.

For years what seemed like a majority of people never questioned how implausible it was that a small number of waist height cameras with 2015-era CMOS image sensors, which wash out in sunlight, which can't see in the dark, which don't penetrate mist or fog or rain or dust or grime, and which require a wet sponge (sold separately) simply for them to stop displaying errors on the dash, will never ever provide the information required to drive a UK car down an unlit B-road at 5am on a gloomy winter morning.

On my Model S the IIHS-rated "Pisspoor" headlamps are so bad even I can't see where I'm going, so what chance does a $65 camera have? Reason folks believed it all is because they were *completely taken in* by the charlatan in charge, whose words have echoed around the empty heads of motoring journalists and forum Teslastans for years now. Elon promises this, Elon promises that.

There is hope. Have a look at this week's Top Gear review of the facelifted 3 and you can almost smell the howling J-turn as all the lizard stenographers slowly realise they've been told lies, and for the sake of everyone's safety should probably not keep repeating them. In addition to Autopilot, the review also takes aim at the needless monkeying with important secondary controls that nobody asked for (they describe the indicator setup as "dangerous", which it is), and at the auto wipers that also never work.

Compared to reviews of its peers, the updated 3 comes over as a mixed bag.

"Is it worth the money? It is not. Maybe on the wide, homogenous roads of the USA, but not in the UK where the car bongs every 30 seconds to tell you it’s turning Autopilot off and you’re on your own." -- lol.

 

[Zilla91]

In defence of those who did back in 2019, including me, not so many people in the Uk at that time realised that Musk talks out of his fundamental orifice.

There is no defence, anyone with half a brain would have been able to see that the idea of a self driving car was pure fiction. You can’t try to blame Musk for your own gullibility

 

[zoros]

New to owning one but steeped in the history of self drive vehicles.
I've never doubted mans ability to produce a product like this - but as ever the controlling factors are outside the OEM's capabilities.
Road surfaces change, road markings suddenly disappear, other vehicles behave erratically...it goes on.

So the way I see/saw FSD coming is that the "sensors" need to be atleast as capable as the human brain to process and respond to all these changes - if it (FSD) is ever going to be allowed to run the show - surely?

So until "we" have AI that can decipher/reason/anticipate at the same level as a human being - all bets are off for a successful FSD. And this ain't going to happen for a very long time - methinks.

Driving on the interstate where traffic is reasonable and road markings are exceptional, is one thing.
Driving along the A51 in the UK, where traffic is horrendous and road conditions a joke - is entirely different.

So why do brits ever contemplate buying such an impossible dream? Marketing / ignorance / hope?

 

[Leytonstone]

There is no defence, anyone with half a brain would have been able to see that the idea of a self driving car was pure fiction. You can’t try to blame Musk for your own gullibility

This is not fair.

- Every weird owner said it was great!
- Every video on Twitter and YouTube from weird owners showed it working!
- All the magazines said it was amazing!
- Robotaxis!
- Every other manufacturer was copying it!
- The share price!

No surprises ordinary car buyers fell for it.

Most people have no clue as to how tire pressure monitors, airbags, GPS and so on work, or whether the adaptive cruise in their previous car was laser or radar, let alone how lasers or radars work, and so put their faith in manufacturers and presumed upon regulations that these things are delivered working and capable of fulfilling whatever safety promise they were making at the time of sale. We all do it all the time.

To dismiss as a dunce anyone who failed to question Tesla's self-driving fiction (and we agree, it is fiction) is a bit much.