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Should TSLA use/steal/borrow the Karma design for Gen III?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by FreeOfPge, May 30, 2013.

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  1. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sport 835

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    I'm not sure it is the "only" differentiating point, but I generally share your view that it is distinctive, and for me that is not in a good way, and that generally speaking the rest of the exterior is similar to other cars. And I think that Franz agrees it isn't very distinctive.

    But obviously not everyone shares our view, and particularly not everyone on the TMC forum. There are lots of people who like the Model S look, and don't like the Karma - like Jerry:

    In the press, the Karma's design is generally acknowledged to be more of an exotic than the Model S. I prefer exotic. Some don't. The problems with exotics are usually the compromises necessary to provide those looks and high performance. But if given the choice, many people would prefer the curvy to the straight/aero. Like the Maserati Gran Turismo vs. the Quattroporte. If given the choice on body style alone, I think most people prefer the Gran Turismo. But the compromises are what turns people away (and the price - though the Quattroporte isn't inexpensive either).

    Here is an article that raises an interesting idea: the Karma has exotic looks and an underwhelming hybrid under the hood, which makes it ok for long trips but horrible off the line so it doesn't deliver on its looks, while the Model S is the opposite in that it looks more common, but has serious guts. However, those serious guts are better for short trips than long ones. As a result, the Model S and Karma have mismatched bodies and drivetrains. If the Model S drivetrain was in a Karma, it would match. Huge power off the line, but not so good for long distance driving. If the Karma drivetrain was in a Model S, it would match better. Less exotic, but would have the road trip advantage of a hybrid.

    Setting aside that superchargers have improved the road trip potential for the Model S relative to ICEs, and in some folks' minds even surpassed the ICE, I think it is still an interesting point, and one that represents the viewpoint that the Karma is an attractive exotic - in appearance - while the Model S is not in that category.

    Mismatched motors: Tesla and Fisker both built the wrong cars for their tech | Digital Trends

    Other than the largesse of the Karma (which is shared by the Model S), the most frequently complained-about aspects of the exterior are the Rollie Fingers handlebar moustache, the long front end, and it being too curvy and Batmobile-like. While I like the look of the Batmobile and Karma and Gran Turismo, I somewhat agree with the other two points. If I had my druthers I'd modify the design accordingly, and that is IMO what we see in the Atlantic. Shorter front end, the moustache has been trimmed, and importantly, the car is much smaller. I walked it off when I saw it in person and it is between a 3-series and 5-series in size. So what do you folks think about taking design cues from the Atlantic for the Gen 3?

    I realize that if the Karma's interior was a problem, the Atlantic has to be worse (assuming it has the center column), but setting that aside, is the Atlantic distasteful in exterior appearance? To me it is Henrik's greatest design.

    Fisker Atlantic Side.jpg Fisker Atlantic Front 3-4.jpg Fisker Atlantic Rear 3-4.JPG fisker-atlantic-overhead.jpg

    Is that too curvy for you guys? If so, I guess we just agree to disagree.

    For those who still hate the grill, maybe a front end more like the Destino?

    Destino.jpg

    And finally, of those who like the Model S over the Karma and Atlantic, do you like the Model S nose cone? The nose cone is the one thing that makes me cringe. To me the rest of the car is perhaps not as exotic as others, but definitely not unattractive.

    Some of the elements of the Atlantic that I like best for Gen 3:

    Not much car extending beyond the wheels
    Found a way to make a four-door but still has coupe-like roof line
    Pano-roof
    Curvy around the wheels
    Not tall

    What I don't like:

    I'm sure it is cramped inside
    Probably can't be that low with a skateboard
    Still has that grill (though not as severe as the Karma)
    Storage is probably terrible (though if you got rid of the ICE that would free up some space)
     
  2. jerry33

    jerry33 (S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20

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    The nose cone doesn't bother me (the bugs that it collects do--where's that repeller screen).

    For the Fisker, I just can't help thinking of this Post #157.
     
  3. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sport 835

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    Hahaha! And some of the other similarities/pics posted there are also really funny.
     
  4. igotzzoom

    igotzzoom Active Member

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    I think the Atlantic is better-looking than the Karma, but sadly, will probably never make it into production, or the rights to the design will be bought by a Chinese automaker.
     
  5. FreeOfPge

    FreeOfPge Member

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    ipdamages, fantastic post. I belive you thouroughly adressed every single aspect as to "why?" those of us that like this curvy design do so. As far as the nose cone, personally, it really bothered me at first, I did not like it at all, but now like it. The truth is I didn't like coffee, beer, wine or sushi at first either, now I live for all four!
     
  6. IceWendigo

    IceWendigo Member

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    I Agree 100%. Gen III needs to enter the Accord/Altima/Camry/Mazda 6 Mid Sized Family Sedan segment.
     
  7. felixtb

    felixtb RsEU502,Sp+14274,XpEUSig4

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    I rather think it needs to do battle a position up. BMW3, Audi4, MB-C, territory. this is what they seem to intend anyway so I am happy. they can not and should not compete with the giants of the world. they should squarely compete with the large luxury brands. this is where they can keep their margins and stay lean and composed and probably a head of the game for quite a while
     
  8. Ludus

    Ludus Member

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    I think Elon has often acknowledged this. BMW sold 1.8 million BMW, RollsRoyce and Mini vehicles in 2012 so there's volume in the upscale market too. The GenIII is stretching to produce an under 40k entry level competitor to the 3 Series and C Class not Toyota or Ford. On a global basis selling several hundred thousand vehicles in this class if the Gen III is as competive with the 3 Series as the Model S is with the 7 Series is very realistic.

    Producing a crippled electric econobox at twice he price of the ICE version is what majors are doing now. Even in 3 or 4 years Tesla won't be able to produce a compelling product with a 200 mile range in the Accord price range, though soon after people will be able to buy used Teslas in that price range. If Tesla continues to change the game by keeping more control of it's used market it may have a very effective product in the $25k range a couple years after the GenIII release.

    Tesla's have a lot fewer moving parts to maintain or replace. It may not be that impractical to refurb them to nearly new condition.
     
  9. dm33

    dm33 Member

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    The battery is the important and expensive part. Time will tell how well they hold up. Nissan isn't doing themselves any favors with battery degradation issues on Arizona Leafs.
     
  10. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    Back to the original question about TSLA using the Fisker, that would be a huge NO.

    Tesla already has a huge amount invested in the design of their platform for the Model S and the Model X. In order to keep the cost of the Gen III reasonable, there needs to be as many shared parts as possible among the family of cars. With higher volume comes costs savings across the entire product family. If TSLA were to use a radically different design (like Fisker) that would likely result in a much more expensive car to produce just because of the lack of common parts with Model S and Model X.

    Also, another reason to keep their current Model S family shape is the ultra low drag. The design is extremely efficient for air flow. It should be even better on the Gen III since they are going for a 20% reduction in size overall and they are trying to get rid of the side view mirrors.

    If you look at the BMW family of cars, from the 3 series to the 7 series, they all look similar. That is how Tesla will achieve higher margins and lower overall development costs. Also by cutting out the middleman dealership network.

    33361030007_large.jpg
     
  11. anticitizen13.7

    anticitizen13.7 Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018

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    Why not? I'm against taking cues from Fisker for two reasons:

    First, the Fisker design language is too controversial for a mass market car. It is polarizing.

    Second, I do not think it benefits Tesla to be associated in any way with a company that did not succeed. Audi and BMW, in contrast, are widely considered to be successful and prestigious automakers. From a marketing perspective, I believe it is advantageous to be associated with winners.
     
  12. joshuaeven

    joshuaeven Member

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    I do not think Elon meant the Gen III will look like an Audi or BMW, but rather it would compete in the same class as the 3 series or A4.
     
  13. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    If there is one thing Elon seems to like with the Model S/X is the amount of space it provides. Both he and Franz mention this frequently.
    A car that is "cramped inside" is a non starter.
     
  14. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sport 835

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    I own an A4 (Avant) and have owned an S5 and a 3-series convertible, and I find them all to be visually appealing. But the IMO Audi S5 is so much more inspired than the A4. I sure hope that the Gen 3 is more like the S5 than the A4.

    A4
    a4.jpg

    A5/S5
    audi-a5.jpg Audi-S5-02.jpg

    To me the addition of a little curve to the fenders makes a big difference, which some would call a "Fiskeresque" trait, but I don't think that it need be polarizing when done in moderation.

    And I agree with you, aronth5. Cramped inside is not a core Tesla value.

    That said, the Roadster was/is small and cramped, though it wasn't really a Tesla design, given that it is basically an Elise conversion, and it definitely isn't a Franz creation (setting aside the 2.5 changes).

    Then the Model S went to the other extreme, with seating for seven, in a huge car. Lots of space.

    I expect that after the "very small" and "very big" options, when Goldilocks gets to experience the "just right" of Gen 3, the car will be somewhere in between, which will mean a compromise on space compared to the Model S. Of course, that's a pretty wide range!
     
  15. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    The entire Fisker image is so damaged at this point, why on earth would anyone want to resurrect anything that even reminds the customer of that car?

    The car itself had a huge number of design flaws. The car was recalled due to mysterious fires. There is nothing redeeming about that brand that is worth saving.
    Is the OP just a troll to suggest that we take the Fisker design seriously? The concept of anyone using the Fisker designs just seems too retarded to take as a serious proposal.
     

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