Signature Angst

[robballan]

I am baffled by all this complaining about Sig owners somehow being cheated by having to pay more than production buyers. That's absolutely not true. Just today I priced the P85+ (can't price a P85 anymore) fully loaded like my Sig. $109,670. My Sig sticker was $109,050. Where's the beef? Beyond being an early driver, I received white leather, several gifts from Tesla, and am treated very well by Tesla service whenever I have had an issue. I'm perfectly happy being a Sig buyer – in fact, happy enough that I am a Sig Model X buyer, too.

More importantly, I am very pleased to have been able to help Tesla finance the development and manufacture of the Model S, by giving them an interest-free loan of $35,000 for a year. I benefit by knowing that the company is doing well and will continue to be there as my car ages and needs future service. I am pleased that Tesla will be able to make future models that I might like to buy. I am pleased that I have helped to transform the auto industry and make a difference. Maybe that isn't enough for some buyers. It is for me.

 

[AnOutsider]

You're comparing the price of a car with options not available a year ago to the price we paid? Sure, the price may be similar, but the P+ alone is much more car than we had available in the handling department, and if I'm remembering correctly, its a 6.5k option. So by your math, you paid the same and got less. Grats.

 

[brianman]

You're comparing the price of a car with options not available a year ago to the price we paid? Sure, the price may be similar, but the P+ alone is much more car than we had available in the handling department, and if I'm remembering correctly, its a 6.5k option. So by your math, you paid the same and got less. Grats.

Also there have been several price increases due to (effectively) inflation so yet again it's an apples to oranges to compare with a "today configuration".

 

[robballan]

@AnOutsider: I agree that the P85+ is "more" than a P85. But an identically rigged P85+ is actually a bit more than a Sig P85. Your $6500 option was standard on the Sig (though admittedly in a less advanced version). It's not as though you got Performance+ and Sig owners got nothing at all: they got a Performance package, too. Would I have liked the P85+? Sure. But it wasn't available (or even known) at the time.

It's ridiculous to compare later versions of the car to what was available at the start. The only valid knock would be if an original comparably equipped non-Sig P85 was less expensive than the Sig P85. From what I can tell, it wasn't. IIRC we got the same car, at the same price, with some options only available to Sig buyers: white leather, Sig red.

The fact that Tesla improves their product over time for the same price is a good thing. Apple does this, too; so do many other companies. Everyone in the computer world knows that their latest purchase is obsolete when it leaves the store. If you always want the last best version for the same price, you would never buy anything. Just think how you are going to feel in a year if US models come with parking sensors, different visors, etc. You will have "paid the same and got less", too. By that logic, no one should ever buy the first version of anything.

BTW, thanks for your grats. I'm happy to support innovation early.

 

[brianman]

I am baffled by all this complaining about Sig owners somehow being cheated by having to pay more than production buyers. That's absolutely not true.

It absolutely was true. You are incorrect. At the time, the price differential was $3,550 (non-Perf) or $5,050 (Perf), IIRC. This is not including the time-value lost on the $35,000 deposit differential.

 

[robballan]

@brianman. Except that it isn't. My original order was for a non-Sig P85, fully loaded. I was able to upgrade to a Sig FOR THE SAME PRICE when someone dropped off the list, simply by increasing my deposit. I didn't get a price increase just for up'ing to a Sig.

Let's not use the time value of money to compare car prices. It's a side issue. $35,000 * .01 = $350. Not worth considering.

 

[brianman]

My original order was for a non-Sig P85, fully loaded. I was able to upgrade to a Sig FOR THE SAME PRICE when someone dropped off the list, simply by increasing my deposit. I didn't get a price increase just for up'ing to a Sig.

Then you made out like a bandit. Sounds like someone messed up.

 

[robballan]

@Brianman: What was the price for a fully loaded P85 as you remember it? Tech package, performance, premium sound, pearl white, etc.

 

[brianman]

Since apparently there's some interest in going down memory lane...

Sig Perf numbers from my car.
Perf numbers courtesy of WayBackMachine from February 2012.

	SigPerf	Perf
Base	105,400	84,900 + 7,500
Paint		1,500
Roof	1,500	1,500
Tech		3,750
Sound		950
Shelf		250
Twin Chargers		1,500
Total	106,900	101,850

Difference: $5,050

Numbers courtesy of Robert.Boston's post in December 2011.
So... what base + options combo are you going to order eventually? - Page 3

	Sig	85
Base	87,900 + 7,500	69,900 + 7,500
Paint		1,500
21"		3,500
Leather		1,500
Tech		3,750
Sound		950
Air		1,500
Shelf		250
Twin Chargers		1,500
Total	95,400	91,850

Difference: $3,550

 

[robballan]

And I was about to post that I, in fact, was wrong; after digging into old Motor Trend and Car & Driver reviews, I see that in fact there was a price difference, though it is very hard to reconstruct and I don't exactly match your figures. I stand corrected. Looking back now I see that my original order was priced at Sig pricing, so of course there was no increase when I moved off, then on, to the Sig list.

My apologies for taking a bad bite at the apple here and stirring things up (embarrassed sigh).

That said, I stand by my comments on the importance of Sig buyers to helping finance Tesla's early production and manufacture. It is true that Model S Sig buyers "paid more and got less" (though I think I might have said they paid more and got the same). It is also true that they played an important role at the time by "lending" Tesla the use of the their deposits for no interest. I don't mind that; in fact, I'm pleased that I could. Others may not be.

I can also agree that Sig buyers of future models will not be playing the same important role, and that there should be no price difference between the Sig and non-Sig versions; an advance deposit should be sufficient to gain early delivery (and other unique options that Tesla might offer).

BTW: I gained so much from the run-up in Tesla stock that I more than paid for my Sig, let alone any price difference. So perhaps it's easier for me to be sanguine about all this.

 

[brianman]

That said, I stand by my comments on the importance of Sig buyers to helping finance Tesla's early production and manufacture. It is true that Model S Sig buyers "paid more and got less" (though I think I might have said they paid more and got the same). It is also true that they played an important role at the time by "lending" Tesla the use of the their deposits for no interest. I don't mind that; in fact, I'm pleased that I could. Others may not be.

September 2012:

Sig donation. It's the only healthy way to think of it at this point.

 

[Smallfootprint]

I had this "Sig Angst" disease last summer as well and coming up on the 1-year anniversary of our (first failed) delivery window and reading about European Sig holders anxiety has recently reminded me of it.

I totally understand those who continue to harbor resentment (though I'm very happy with our post-delivery Tesla experience and have forgiven earlier transgressions), but I think signature owners may be more inclined to feel resentful of the new features because of how awful the signature rollout process was. Based on an admittedly limited sample size, I think most signature owners wouldn't have minded paying a few $k more for a similarly production equipped car (a la a donation) if the rollout had been smoother. We knew we were early adopters and were prepared for the car to add new features over time (like the Roadster did), but we kind of expected to be treated during the delivery process like we were traveling first-class rather than steerage.

By the time our car actually arrived with all the drama of multiple delivery windows missed and no updates or returned calls from Tesla until we raised holy hell and threatened to cancel our deposit (early signature reservation holders had the option of getting a full refund even after the car was built if delivery missed the window by more than 30 days), I was furious and decided no matter how much I liked the car I wouldn't suggest it to anyone until customer service improved.

That improvement seems to have happened and I now feel good about encouraging friends to buy the car and only occasionally have flashback nightmares about last summer. However, if the European signature rollout goes as poorly as it did in the States, I firmly believe that Tesla should end the signature program, refund the $35k to each signature reservation holder and just move them to the front of the production line. You can ask your most-loyal customers to pay more for a nearly identical product OR accept sup-par customer service and communication but asking both is a bad idea which will alienate fans.

 

[AnOutsider]

I had this "Sig Angst" disease last summer as well and coming up on the 1-year anniversary of our (first failed) delivery window and reading about European Sig holders anxiety has recently reminded me of it.

I totally understand those who continue to harbor resentment (though I'm very happy with our post-delivery Tesla experience and have forgiven earlier transgressions), but I think signature owners may be more inclined to feel resentful of the new features because of how awful the signature rollout process was. Based on an admittedly limited sample size, I think most signature owners wouldn't have minded paying a few $k more for a similarly production equipped car (a la a donation) if the rollout had been smoother. We knew we were early adopters and were prepared for the car to add new features over time (like the Roadster did), but we kind of expected to be treated during the delivery process like we were traveling first-class rather than steerage.

By the time our car actually arrived with all the drama of multiple delivery windows missed and no updates or returned calls from Tesla until we raised holy hell and threatened to cancel our deposit (early signature reservation holders had the option of getting a full refund even after the car was built if delivery missed the window by more than 30 days), I was furious and decided no matter how much I liked the car I wouldn't suggest it to anyone until customer service improved.

That improvement seems to have happened and I now feel good about encouraging friends to buy the car and only occasionally have flashback nightmares about last summer. However, if the European signature rollout goes as poorly as it did in the States, I firmly believe that Tesla should end the signature program, refund the $35k to each signature reservation holder and just move them to the front of the production line. You can ask your most-loyal customers to pay more for a nearly identical product OR accept sup-par customer service and communication but asking both is a bad idea which will alienate fans.

100% agreed, and if the EU rollout is any indication, Tesla seems to continue to want to do both.

 

[brianman]

refund the $35k to each signature reservation holder and just move them to the front of the production line.

I disagree on a key point here. Then and now, the value of the U.S. Signature was worth at least the time-value of the extra $35k reservation. The point of contention (for me) was "higher price for equivalently configured GP vehicle". If you're going to charge me more, give me more. Early delivery with briefly-exclusive-red balances with higher-initial-deposit but not with "and pay $5k more".

 

[dsm363]

I disagree on a key point here. Then and now, the value of the U.S. Signature was worth at least the time-value of the extra $35k reservation. The point of contention (for me) was "higher price for equivalently configured GP vehicle". If you're going to charge me more, give me more. Early delivery with briefly-exclusive-red balances with higher-initial-deposit but not with "and pay $5k more".

Where do you draw the line? Some people hopped towards the end of the Sig line or off of the wait list ahead of a few thousand production reservation holders who waited for years. The Sig does have more extensive leaner on the inside but that isn't worth $5,000 I agree. Tesla needs to better define what the perks are and what the delivery advantage actually is for each market. Hopefully they are learning and do this for the Model X launch.
I would like it if Tesla offered some of these new features installed in newer models as a steep discount to Signature customers. That is an arbitrary line and will anger early production customers I'm sure. There really is little they can do short of refunding the $5,000 difference that would make people happy. Even then you'd have some people who really wanted Sig red but didn't think it was worth the $5,000 who might get angry. Basically, almost anything they do will piss someone off I'd bet.

 

[brianman]

I would like it (if) Tesla offered some of these new features installed in newer models as a steep discount to Signature customers.

This would ease the pain somewhat for sure (and definitely at a certain tipping point would make it well worth the $5k difference), but I won't hold my breath that they'll do this.

- - - Updated - - -

Where do you draw the line?

I'm fuzzy on the question here. Please elaborate if this wasn't rhetorical.

 

[dsm363]

This would ease the pain somewhat for sure (and definitely at a certain tipping point would make it well worth the $5k difference), but I won't hold my breath that they'll do this.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm fuzzy on the question here. Please elaborate if this wasn't rhetorical.

I agree the ship has likely sailed on a thing like money back. I hope they are listening (which they seem to do) and incorporate feedback in order to create a better informed Signature customer for the Model X launch.

 

[AnOutsider]

I agree the ship has likely sailed on a thing like money back. I hope they are listening (which they seem to do) and incorporate feedback in order to create a better informed Signature customer for the Model X launch.

The thing is, they're making the sme mistakes in the EU, so, at least for the S, the ship seems to also have sailed on them learning from this.

 

[dsm363]

The thing is, they're making the sme mistakes in the EU, so, at least for the S, the ship seems to also have sailed on them learning from this.

That's possible. The gap between US and EU launches was less than a year during the continued ramp up and drive to profitability. They have plenty of time before Model X launch to address this so really no more excuses. If all they offer is red paint and 'be among the first to get your Model X' then people will know. They should even be in a place to hold Model as deliveries for a week before delivering production cars by that point.

 

[brianman]

If all they offer is red paint and 'be among the first to get your Model X' then people will know.

At what point would you declare "knowing"? Technically speaking we "still have something coming for Signature Model S", according to an Elon quote that was never followed with any resolution. It's quite literally a "check's in the mail" kind of thing w/r/t the Elon quote. It's just as open-ended as "we'll do something for Roadster". Actually it's more open-ended because the Roadster quote from Teslive includes "next year".