Slower supercharging on Model 3

[brucet999]

Hopefully this thread will encourage more of the "woe is me" people to cancel their orders

Did anyone else notice the speed on supercharging? 130 miles per 30 minutes. On a 220 mile car. So its not 30 minutes to 80% like with a Model S, it's 30 minutes to 60%. It's 40 minutes, an extra 10 minutes wait per stop, to 80%.

The reasoning is probably the same reason they're limiting the battery mileage warranty - they have to control warranty costs better on a more mass-market car, and thus are limiting cell wear more.

Has no effect on me - there's not a supercharger in my entire country, I'll be charging on CHAdeMOs at 43kW. But with superchargers limited to 66kW for a Model 3, that's not that much of a difference!

"130 miles per 30 minutes. On a 220 mile car. So its not 30 minutes to 80% like with a Model S, it's 30 minutes to 60%."
The assumption is that you won't be supercharging from 0% SOC. They seem to be assuming you start charge with a reasonable amount of range left.

 

[alseTrick]

The assumption is that you won't be supercharging from 0% SOC. They seem to be assuming you start charge with a reasonable amount of range left.

If you're doing a long road trip, isn't it better to run the battery low though? Maybe not down to 0%, but down lower than you would while using it as a daily driver.

 

[brucet999]

If you're doing a long road trip, isn't it better to run the battery low though? Maybe not down to 0%, but down lower than you would while using it as a daily driver.

Deliberately arriving with 20 miles is risky, because headwinds, rain, or even rough roads can reduce range. Supercharger location more often dictates SOC upon arrival for those of us who don't plan so precisely how much to charge up in order to reach the next SC with ideal SOC.

 

[arnis]

Small reminder, 90% of charging on Teslas is done at home. I think many folks overestimate the frequency in which they would exceed the vehicles range in any particular day.

Well, on average, you are wrong. Way more than 90% of charging is done at home. Way way more.
Some extreme users/taxis, yes.

Bolt EV apparently would average roughly about 53 kW

Bolt is unable to sustain 50kW rate. It's much worse than even 30kWh Nissan Leaf (in terms on charging power).
It throttles down way too early. Bjorn made some observations.

I wasn't thinking about the cost. I was thinking about supercharger congestion. If you have a ton of Model 3s they will be using spaces for longer time periods forcing more folks to wait. It's to Teslas advantage to have all cars charge as quickly as possible.

Is a supercharger with 57 vehicles and 60 stalls congested? Even if everybody stays for 40 minutes?

 

[RobertF]

Press Kit
Press Kit | Tesla

Standard Battery

• Range: 220 miles (EPA estimated)
• Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes
• Home charging rate: 30 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 32A)

Long Range Battery - $9,000

• Range: 310 miles
• Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes
• Home charging rate: 37 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 40A)

I only get 26 miles per hour in my S at home using a nema 1450. Going to 37 or realistically a little less will be a big welcomed jump for me, particularly since I will have 2 Tesla's to feed.

 

[insaneoctane]

This is unfortunate. This 1)Makes the model 3 owners wait longer. 2) Makes everyone in line for the supercharger slot wait longer (including S/X owners) I thought technology improves not falls backwards over time.....
All Tesla owners should be upset about this for reason #2 above.

 

[hockeythug]

This is unfortunate. This 1)Makes the model 3 owners wait longer. 2) Makes everyone in line for the supercharger slot wait longer (including S/X owners) I thought technology improves not falls backwards over time.....
All Tesla owners should be upset about this for reason #2 above.

They are trying to steer 3 owners away from them so their preferred customers can use them.

 

[Candleflame]

Hopefully this thread will encourage more of the "woe is me" people to cancel their orders

Did anyone else notice the speed on supercharging? 130 miles per 30 minutes. On a 220 mile car. So its not 30 minutes to 80% like with a Model S, it's 30 minutes to 60%. It's 40 minutes, an extra 10 minutes wait per stop, to 80%.

The reasoning is probably the same reason they're limiting the battery mileage warranty - they have to control warranty costs better on a more mass-market car, and thus are limiting cell wear more.

Has no effect on me - there's not a supercharger in my entire country, I'll be charging on CHAdeMOs at 43kW. But with superchargers limited to 66kW for a Model 3, that's not that much of a difference!

i doubt it has anything to do with limiting (this time round). I think the issue is that the Model 3 is more efficient, so gets more range with a smaller battery. This also means you get less supercharging speed. A 55kwh battery is not gonna charge as fast as a 70kwh battery even if the range is the same.

 

[Candleflame]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Supercharging mean FAST charging?

Are we the guinea pigs who are going to be testing the new 2170 cells for Tesla?

Did the Model S 60 battery have a lower charge speed or did it also do 170 miles in 30 minutes?

And I noticed on My Tesla page that supercharging was listed as "pay per use" Where's my free 400 KW of Supercharging?

On Bjorns old videos the Model S60 does about 150km (90 miles) in 30min (possibly on old slower charging speeds) Kman who charged from 0% got about 120 miles in 30min.


Either way, much slower than the big battery on the Model 3. The Model S70 gets about 200km/120miles for 30min of supercharging.

 

[Jeff N]

Bolt is unable to sustain 50kW rate.

On a next-generation CCS charger the Bolt will likely draw at least 50 kW starting from a 15% state of charge and ramp up to around 55 kW up to around 53% state of charge where is begins ramping down.

It's much worse than even 30kWh Nissan Leaf (in terms on charging power).

Not really true.

If you start charging the Bolt EV at 10-15% it will charge at nearly identical power as a 30 kWh Leaf starting at 10-15% until the Leaf ramps down at a little above its 80% point. That takes about 30 minutes on today's 125A 50 kW chargers. Of course, shortly after that the Leaf will quickly drop to a power below the rate of the Bolt and will stop charging when it is full while the Bolt continues charging for another ~30 kWh.

This is a charging graph I grabbed from a Google search which shows a 30 kWh Leaf charging on the red line. At least that is what happens on today's chargers that are limited to 125A. I don't know how the Leaf charges on a next-generation charger.

 

[Matias]

On Bjorns old videos the Model S60 does about 150km (90 miles) in 30min (possibly on old slower charging speeds) Kman who charged from 0% got about 120 miles in 30min.


Either way, much slower than the big battery on the Model 3. The Model S70 gets about 200km/120miles for 30min of supercharging.

So Model 3's 130 and 170 are faster. Good.

 

[emir-t]

So Model 3's 130 and 170 are faster. Good.

It is because speed of supercharging is all about C rates. Model S 60 (Original 60) was the lowest Ah pack Tesla had ever made at 198Ah. Model 3s both packs will be 216Ah. However this time standard Model 3 pack suffers from having less voltage hence less power. Yet not as low as 60. It is at chemistry's limit like other Tesla packs. Might want to check out my spreadsheet speculating on specs.

 

[Lanber]

If you check out Bjørns video of roadtrip with Ampera/Bolt it shows DC charging speed. Looks like car is limited by how many amps the charger can put out untill the car orders tapering.

Maximum achived 45 kw, doesent say where but likely just before tapering starts on 55% ish SOC. Charger is 50kw 125A.
Bjørn makes a detour for a rare 80kw charger only to find he cant charge there as it`s offline and he dosent have access.

25% SOC = 41 kw
60% SOC = 40 kw
70% SOC = 23 kw

If you arrive with 0% and charge to 60% you will get 40kw charging speed on average and it will take you just shy of 1h.

Compared to any Tesla this is really bad.

 

[TexasEV]

This is unfortunate. This 1)Makes the model 3 owners wait longer. 2) Makes everyone in line for the supercharger slot wait longer (including S/X owners) I thought technology improves not falls backwards over time.....
All Tesla owners should be upset about this for reason #2 above.

Smaller battery = slower charging. But it's not making others wait longer. The battery has less capacity so the car is done at 220 miles ( or 80 ot 90% of that, whatever the owner is charging to) rather than 300+ and almost all supercharging stations have no wait anyway. You're lucky to see another Tesla sometimes. The exception is California and there a massive expansion underway there so waits will be uncommon.

 

[gregincal]

But if you're only charging your battery halfway at each charger in order to just make it to the next one and charge again - because you don't want to spend over an hour charging your battery to 80-90%, what's the benefit of the long rage battery?

Reality is different to theory. A larger battery gives you more flexibility. One thing that always helps is that when you start a trip you always charge to 100% and drive as far as you can before charging. A large battery might change a 2 supercharger trip to a one supercharger trip. Or you might want to make one longer stop and eat and the large battery then allows skipping a stop you otherwise could make. Or when you drive the back roads where there are no superchargers.

 

[Candleflame]

i dont think the charging issue is just a voltage issue, otherwise we would all have 50 kw 2000 Volt packs which charge in 10min....

The battery chemistry of the 3 is clearly much better suited for fast charging. - or Tesla has now done enough tests and realized they can up the charge rate by 50% without doing long term damage to the battery.

 

[KarenRei]

However this time standard Model 3 pack suffers from having less voltage hence less power.

Please don't state that as fact. That is your estimation, but people have been disagreeing with some of your numbers over there. Until there's actual corroboration, claiming X version is Y voltage as if it's a known fact is irresponsible.

i doubt it has anything to do with limiting (this time round). I think the issue is that the Model 3 is more efficient, so gets more range with a smaller battery. This also means you get less supercharging speed. A 55kwh battery is not gonna charge as fast as a 70kwh battery even if the range is the same.

That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is that the relative rate of charging is lower for the 3, not the absolute rate. Of course the absolute rate for a 55kWh battery is going to be lower than a 70kWh battery. But the relative rate is lower on top of that. The small pack takes a nominal 40 minutes to 80%, versus S's nominal 30 minutes to 80%.

As for why it's this way, I think we've had plenty of clues.

* Lots of talk in investor calls about getting warranty prices under controls
* Far greater warranty liabilities with the 3
* Mileage limitations imposed on the 3's battery warranty
* Ss and Xs that silently get supercharge-limited after a hidden number of supercharges on the packs with the new silicon anodes (which one presumes are being used on the 3).

Seems to me that they're just trying to limit their warranty liabilities by limiting the max charge rate more than on the S.

 

[nikeykid]

why is everyone freaking out about this? telsa's own charging home page says 170 miles in 30 minutes (probably on the conservative side). that's the exact specs as the long range model 3, so no different than the current S and X.

On the Road
Supercharging
Stay charged while you’re on the road using the Tesla Supercharger network. Placed along well traveled routes, a Supercharger provides up to 170 miles of range in as little as 30 minutes.

Charging | Tesla

 

[Reciprocity]

Where did you find this supercharger speed?

Its just math. The more efficient car will charge faster in terms of miles or range not necessary KWh per hour. The size of the battery will actually make it charge slower, but the efficiency will make it charge much faster in terms of miles per hour. The Model 3 on longer trips will be considerably more efficient, maybe as much as 30% more efficient. So if both an S75 and Model 3 pull into a station with 10%, the Model 3 will leave 20 minutes before the S at 80%. Now maybe the 3 needs to make one more stop, but it will more then be made up in charging time.

 

[Reciprocity]

Please don't state that as fact. That is your estimation, but people have been disagreeing with some of your numbers over there. Until there's actual corroboration, claiming X version is Y voltage as if it's a known fact is irresponsible.



That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is that the relative rate of charging is lower for the 3, not the absolute rate. Of course the absolute rate for a 55kWh battery is going to be lower than a 70kWh battery. But the relative rate is lower on top of that. The small pack takes a nominal 40 minutes to 80%, versus S's nominal 30 minutes to 80%.

As for why it's this way, I think we've had plenty of clues.

* Lots of talk in investor calls about getting warranty prices under controls
* Far greater warranty liabilities with the 3
* Mileage limitations imposed on the 3's battery warranty
* Ss and Xs that silently get supercharge-limited after a hidden number of supercharges on the packs with the new silicon anodes (which one presumes are being used on the 3).

Seems to me that they're just trying to limit their warranty liabilities by limiting the max charge rate more than on the S.

Not worried about the warranty issues. My guess is that Tesla will have a limited warrenty on the battery pack and then replace them at a very modest cost if they fail outside the warranty. This is because the battery is the most expensive part on the car, so if you have a million mile warranty and you dont know the failure rate, you will need to set aside $5k a car until you do. Once you know the real failure rate, maybe in 10 years, then you can lower the amount set aside. This would crush cash flow for no good reason. Instead Tesla can just do 100/120k mile warranties then just ignore that when a battery fails at 130k and charge just a trade in fee of say $1000 for labor. They can then repair the old battery and use it in another car that fails after 130k. No actual cost to Tesla and good service to owners. This could save them thousands per car in warranty accrual accounts. Its all just accounting, but it kills cash flow, which is critical for a company that is trying to grow and expand as quickly as Tesla is.