Slower supercharging on Model 3

[Graffi]

Except that many soon to be Tesla owners are not able to charge at home. That is a frequent "oh don't worry about it" type comment that Tesla fans make that needs to be retired.

I believe the number of new Model 3 owners that do not have their own home or dedicated parking spot with electricity available will be very small, and those should be able to find an alternative spot to charge. If nothing else, they can keep a bicycle at the local Nissan dealer for when they plug into their J1772.

Actually, when we were on our recent cross-country trip we stayed a week with my brother in south GA that was 60 miles between two Superchargers. I ended up calling the local Nissan dealer to ask about their J1772 rather than use my brother's 120v plug. They were happy to let me use it and even offered to make sure it was not blocked. They were actually excited that someone was able to use an EV for a cross country trip and happy to be a part of that trip. I ended up driving over just before their closing time and left it plugged in until early the next morning of the day we were leaving.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

But now even the Model 3 310 charges slower than any S, or X. 200 miles in 30 minutes shouldn't be too hard and 120 in 30 is actually rather bad.

That might be an average instead of a maximum, which is pretty good.

 

[Jeff N]

I'm not at all surprised about the Model 3 charging rate. It's all about the small standard battery size and the cell designed for maximum energy density. Elon's reference about a 350 kW charger being "child's play" is likely a reference to charging on the future Tesla semi truck, not a Tesla passenger car.

The Model 3 standard battery is smaller than any battery previously used by Tesla. Even the few Model S40 cars contained a nominal 62 kWh battery software limited to 40 kWh. The Model 3 battery is apparently around 55 kWh or so meaning it's inherently going to be slower at Supercharging unless other new battery breakthroughs compensate -- and obviously they don't.

Lithium ion batteries built for hybrid cars are designed to maximize power rather than energy. For example, the merely 1.5 kWh battery pack in the Chevy Malibu hybrid can put out a little over 50 kW and regen at up to 60 kW even though has 40x less energy storage than the standard Model 3. But the Malibu cells are not very energy dense and are probably somewhat more expensive to build. It's a tradeoff.

The Hyundai Ioniq is likely using cells that are tuned for a different power vs energy density tradeoff so its smaller pack can still charge at up to 70 kW. The Model 3 likely averages around 65 kW when adding 130 miles in 30 minutes even though it's battery has twice the energy capacity. The Bolt EV apparently would average roughly about 53 kW when adding 90 miles in 30 minutes (it seems to be ~15% +- 5% less efficient than the Model 3).

I know these charge rate differences are important to some people but in my own experience road tripping in a Model S P85 on Superchargers and in a Bolt EV on 50 kW CCS I didn't perceive a huge difference in overall trip pleasure --maybe some but not a big deal.

Once you are waiting 30 minutes for a charge you are probably wandering off to use the bathroom and get a coffee somewhere and the added ~20 minutes to get similar driving range charged into the Bolt EV doesn't result in that much more *perceived* waiting time unless you are standing around at the charger twiddling your thumbs with nothing to do. Similar deal with a standard battery Model 3 vs a bigger battery Model 3 or Model S. Similar deal between a standard battery Model 3 vs a Bolt EV on next-generation CCS highway chargers.

In the near-term, I don't expect any passenger cars to actually charge at "350 kW" and only very expensive exotic cars will charge much beyond 200 kW peak. That's just due to the reality of lithium ion battery tradeoffs for long-range energy-dense batteries using today's technology. Most ordinary long-range cars in the next 5 years won't be charging much faster than Tesla's fastest charging Model S today.

 

[Matias]

I'm not at all surprised about the Model 3 charging rate. It's all about the small standard battery size and the cell designed for maximum energy density. Elon's reference about a 350 kW charger being "child's play" is likely a reference to charging on the future Tesla semi truck, not a Tesla passenger car.

The Model 3 standard battery is smaller than any battery previously used by Tesla. Even the few Model S40 cars contained a nominal 62 kWh battery software limited to 40 kWh. The Model 3 battery is apparently around 55 kWh or so meaning it's inherently going to be slower at Supercharging unless other new battery breakthroughs compensate -- and obviously they don't.

Lithium ion battery's built for hybrid cars are designed to maximize power rather than energy. For example, the merely 1.5 kWh battery pack in the Chevy Malibu hybrid can put out a little over 50 kW and regen at up to 60 kW even though has 40x less energy storage than the standard Model 3. But the Malibu cells are not very energy dense and are probably somewhat more expensive to build. It's a tradeoff.

The Hyundai Ioniq is likely using cells that are tuned for a different power vs energy density tradeoff so its smaller pack can still charge at up to 70 kW. The Model 3 likely averages around 65 kW when adding 130 miles in 30 minutes even though it's battery has twice the energy capacity. The Bolt EV apparently would average roughly about 53 kW when adding 90 miles in 30 minutes (it seems to be ~15% +- 5% less efficient than the Model 3).

I know these charge rate differences are important to some people but in my own experience road tripping in a Model S P85 on Superchargers and in a Bolt EV on 50 kW CCS I didn't perceive a huge difference in overall trip pleasure --maybe some but not a big deal.

Once you are waiting 30 minutes for a charge you are probably wandering off to use the bathroom and get a coffee somewhere and the added ~20 minutes to get similar driving range charged into the Bolt EV doesn't result in that much more *perceived* waiting time unless you are standing around at the charger twiddling your thumbs with nothing to do. Similar deal with a standard battery Model 3 vs a bigger battery Model 3 or Model S. Similar deal between a standard battery Model 3 vs a Bolt EV on next-generation CCS highway chargers.

In the near-term, I don't expect any passenger cars to actually charge at "350 kW" and only very expensive exotic cars will charge much beyond 200 kW peak. That's just due to the reality of lithium ion battery tradeoffs for long-range energy-dense batteries using today's technology. Most ordinary long-range cars in the next 5 years won't be charging much faster than Tesla's fastest charging Model S today.

That doesn't explain why larger battery Model 3 is also slower than 70 Model S.

 

[powertoold]

How fast would a model 3 charge with a normal 120v outlet, assuming around 10 amps? 5 miles an hour?

 

[alseTrick]

I believe the number of new Model 3 owners that do not have their own home or dedicated parking spot with electricity available will be very small, and those should be able to find an alternative spot to charge. If nothing else, they can keep a bicycle at the local Nissan dealer for when they plug into their J1772.

Actually, when we were on our recent cross-country trip we stayed a week with my brother in south GA that was 60 miles between two Superchargers. I ended up calling the local Nissan dealer to ask about their J1772 rather than use my brother's 120v plug. They were happy to let me use it and even offered to make sure it was not blocked. They were actually excited that someone was able to use an EV for a cross country trip and happy to be a part of that trip. I ended up driving over just before their closing time and left it plugged in until early the next morning of the day we were leaving.

"Those that can't charge at home will be a very small number" is another phrase that needs to be retired.

 

[JonathanD]

Except that many soon to be Tesla owners are not able to charge at home. That is a frequent "oh don't worry about it" type comment that Tesla fans make that needs to be retired.

Supercharging is still not the answer. You need a destination charger you can use at work or something.

 

[SpiceWare]

what's the benefit of the long rage battery?

For me common weekend getaways are to family/friends in Corpus Christi(215 miles), San Antonio(225) and Austin (180). Combine the need for AC in Texas with our speed limits and the smaller pack means I'd have to stop and charge on those trips. With the larger battery I could make it without stopping.

For the cross-country trips you'd be able to skip the first # of supercharger sites before having to stop, plus when you do the larger battery recharges faster than the smaller battery.

 

[alseTrick]

Supercharging is still not the answer. You need a destination charger you can use at work or something.

I didn't say super charging was. Although elon has specifically mentioned urban superchargers lately.

 

[tezzla]

It seems to me that the charging should be faster than the S or X, here's my thought process:
The total battery size (55 kWh or 100kWh) shouldn't matter at all, each is actually filled with small batteries (ie: 4000 vs 10000 (made up numbers)), so, I would think the charging speed should be based on the individual cells and not the total volume?
(disclaimer: I know nothing about charging, just a seat of the pants thought)

 

[alseTrick]

For me common weekend getaways are to family/friends in Corpus Christi(215 miles), San Antonio(225) and Austin (180). Combine the need for AC in Texas with our speed limits and the smaller pack means I'd have to stop and charge on those trips. With the larger battery I could make it without stopping.

For the cross-country trips you'd be able to skip the first # of supercharger sites before having to stop, plus when you do the larger battery recharges faster than the smaller battery.

I don't really feel that addresses my question though. You get to skip one whole super charger? That's not super beneficial on a long trip that requires multiple super charges. And the whole point is that Tesla's figures are claiming it doesn't charge *that fast* regardless.

If it will take so long to super charge to a high enough % in order to actually skip thenext super charger, at that point, is it not just better to hit every super charger at near empty charge and only charge enough to get to the next super charger? (Long sentence/question.) And if that's the case, why bother with the bigger battery?

I'm talking about a one way 1k mile multi state type trip.

 

[Jeff N]

That doesn't explain why larger battery Model 3 is also slower than 70 Model S.

Is it? I haven't memorized the official charging speed specs for all the Model S variants.

I'm doubting that the large pack Model 3 Supercharges slower in terms of miles added 30 minutes than the Model S 70.

 

[SageBrush]

Did anyone else notice the speed on supercharging? 130 miles per 30 minutes.

I noticed, but I would hold off on too many calculations just yet since we don't know what part of the battery SoC is being charged to come up with that figure. I'm also cautiously optimistic that 70 kW will be available when the battery is near empty since we have a RC photo showing that charge rate.

E.g., if the Model 3 charges at 70 kW up to 60% and 40 kW to 90% and then 20 kW to 100% I'll be more than satisfied*. 70 kW from the beginning works out to 5.6 miles a minute charge rate.

*It should also satisfy the lion's share of most road trippers, once they figure out the logistics of SC jumping.

 

[SageBrush]

I've said this before but batteries are not scalable, increasing cell size means decreasing power density (and charge speed, usually) all other things being equal.

As I tried to tell people a week or two ago, as cell battery increases the surface area to volume drops; and all else being equal, the heat dissipation suffers. The Tesla decision to keep the 1860 cells in the higher performance S and X models was a rather loud clue.

 

[scottf200]

But if you're only charging your battery halfway at each charger in order to just make it to the next one and charge again - because you don't want to spend over an hour charging your battery to 80-90%, what's the benefit of the long rage battery?

170 miles in 30 minutes is more than 1/2 of a 310 (max) range that degrades over time (5% first year?)
Winter or cooler weather; headwinds; speeding...
When I stop for lunch it can be more than 30 minutes.
Depending on the future you may be able to skip a charger.

Standard Battery

• Range: 220 miles (EPA estimated)
• Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes
• Home charging rate: 30 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 32A)

Long Range Battery - $9,000

• Range: 310 miles
• Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes
• Home charging rate: 37 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 40A)

 

[Matias]

Is it? I haven't memorized the official charging speed specs for all the Model S variants.

I'm doubting that the large pack Model 3 Supercharges slower in terms of miles added 30 minutes than the Model S 70.

But if miles added in 30 min is the same in Model S 70 and Model 3, then kw/min is slower in 70 3 than in 70 S. But to be honest, i'm not sure about miles/30 min charge rate of the model S 70kW.

 

[SpiceWare]

I don't really feel that addresses my question though.

You're right - the benefit of a "long rage battery" is it can hold a grudge longer

You get to skip one whole super charger?

I said #, not 1, as the # of superchargers you could skip would depend upon your route.

I'm talking about a one way 1k mile multi state type trip.

A quick and dirty spreadsheet shows the larger pack would save about an hour on a 1000 mile trip.

 

[transpondster]

170 miles / 30 min. 310 range, simple school math tells 1,1C charge rate in lower SOC (5-60%?), that work out at about 60 and 80 kW. 80 kW for 75?kWh pack means ~15% slower than S/X 75 pack. 15% is surface/volume difference in 2170/18650.

 

[shokunin]

So its not 30 minutes to 80% like with a Model S.

I have yet to see ANY model S or X charge from 0% to 80% in 30 minutes. If I could get 170 miles in 30 minutes that would be awesome in my Model S, but I don't.

 

[alseTrick]

You two are probably right.