So… Highland is out…

[Durzel]

Good review of the indicators from a Highland owner rather than a motoring journalist:

The guy demos the fact that you’ll need to look at the wheel (and therefore off the road) while you’re turning.

I guess most people just aren’t going to bother. It’s not as if people indicating off roundabouts is rigorously adhered to anyway?

 

[Maki22]

Good review of the indicators from a Highland owner rather than a motoring journalist:

The guy demos the fact that you’ll need to look at the wheel (and therefore off the road) while you’re turning.

I guess most people just aren’t going to bother. It’s not as if people indicating off roundabouts is rigorously adhered to anyway?

I have been driving my Highland for 2 weeks now and I don't look at the wheel at all to indicate, even in roundabouts.

I have leaned where the buttons are by feel of the wheel so I always manage to indicate no matter how much I turn the wheel.

The ironic thing is that in at least 90% of the times, I am the only one that indicate in roundabouts... in a car that everyone says is impossible to use the indicators...

 

[Skie]

I don't think that video is a great example, lot of comments on the video saying he's doing it wrong and I'm pretty sure you arent supposed to ever indicate when going straight ahead except for before the exit.

I'm wondering if one of the benefits of the buttons is a bit of re-mapping of peoples brains to change learned behaviours and force them to plan ahead a little bit. With stalks, it's far too easy to flick a direction and in pretty much the same movement then start to move in that direction, which gives drivers around you no time to react to your indicating. At least with buttons there are two separate actions required to indicate and turn.

Would love to see someone drive a highland around some of the double roundabouts here though, not sure I'm up to the wrist gymnastics that might be required to indicate properly.

 

[MrT3]

I have been driving my Highland for 2 weeks now and I don't look at the wheel at all to indicate, even in roundabouts.

I have leaned where the buttons are by feel of the wheel so I always manage to indicate no matter how much I turn the wheel.

I’m sure I would feel the same but my wife who only very occasionally needs to drive it will never build up that muscle memory and I’m sure will actually not even try.

The fact remains that as a driver there is just no upside to removing the stalk.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I’m sure I would feel the same but my wife who only very occasionally needs to drive it will never build up that muscle memory and I’m sure will actually not even try.

The fact remains that as a driver there is just no upside to removing the stalk.

My wife loves her Model 3 Performance but when it comes around to the time to change. I highly doubt she'll have a car without stalks. She'll have zero interest in wanting to learn it and pretty sure she'll refuse to even try.

 

[Durzel]

I don't think that video is a great example, lot of comments on the video saying he's doing it wrong and I'm pretty sure you arent supposed to ever indicate when going straight ahead except for before the exit.

I'm wondering if one of the benefits of the buttons is a bit of re-mapping of peoples brains to change learned behaviours and force them to plan ahead a little bit. With stalks, it's far too easy to flick a direction and in pretty much the same movement then start to move in that direction, which gives drivers around you no time to react to your indicating. At least with buttons there are two separate actions required to indicate and turn.

Would love to see someone drive a highland around some of the double roundabouts here though, not sure I'm up to the wrist gymnastics that might be required to indicate properly.

This feels like some serious mental gymnastics to be honest. The notion that Tesla are aiming to improve driving standards by making it harder for people to make last minute indicator decisions is quite incredible, as an earnest rationale.

People indicating at the last minute are going to be taking the exit they’ve decided to take regardless of any indication. The indication is tokenistic. People who are bad at indicating aren’t going to go out of their way to adapt to an even more onerous input than flicking a stalk, in my opinion.

I’ll be test driving one myself when I get a chance, mostly to confirm for myself one way or the other whether it’s a big deal or not. The rest of the stuff I can assume from reviews etc will be better (Tesla Vision coming from USS notwithstanding)

 

[Maki22]

I do agree that stalkless isn't for everyone, you need to be able to look at it with an open mind and willing to give it a try and get used to it.

If you sit in the car with the mind that they are horrible, then test driving the car for 1 hour won't make you change your mind about them since you need more time than that to get used to it and more time before you start to develop muscle memory.

I had a very hard time to get used to all the buttons on the steering wheel of the ID.3 and found it to be dangerous to drive with since I always ended up looking at the wheel to turn on TCC and to adjust the speed or following distance. That doesn't mean that it sucks, it all depends on what you are used to and I am sure I would get used to it if I had the car for more than a week and actually tried to learn the controls on the wheel.

 

[zoomer0056]

I do agree that stalkless isn't for everyone, you need to be able to look at it with an open mind and willing to give it a try and get used to it.

Most people when talking about this subject use the phrase "get used to it". However, it's more correct to say "learn how to use". This takes practice.

 

[Skie]

This feels like some serious mental gymnastics to be honest. The notion that Tesla are aiming to improve driving standards by making it harder for people to make last minute indicator decisions is quite incredible, as an earnest rationale.

I don’t think Tesla had that on their mind at all, it’s just a potential side effect that could be a positive over a long term. I don’t think they’re going to re-add stalks unless someone forces them to. If anything, other manufacturers are probably watching with a lot of interest to see if they can follow suit.

 

[Maki22]

Most people when talking about this subject use the phrase "get used to it". However, it's more correct to say "learn how to use". This takes practice.

You can say that as well.

But it is the same with any new car you buy,

Go from a VW to a Hyundai and I am sure you will spend weeks trying to get used to and learn where all the buttons are.
Indicators moving from stalk to wheel is no different.

 

[ACarneiro]

Only it is different, because indicators are considered an essential safety feature. So much so that the location and operation of their stalks has been standardised across the industry by regulation. There is a reason for that.

I still cannot fathom what there is to gain for all this effort, other than Tesla once again trying to prove a point.

 

[Oxid8ter]

I have leaned where the buttons are by feel of the wheel so I always manage to indicate no matter how much I turn the wheel.

I personally struggle to see the issue, to buttons are on the outside edge of the "stem" of the wheel and follow the same layout as a stalk e.g. up for right, down for left.

The problem is, like you have said in one of your other posts - people who have decided they don't like them without trying will not change their mind, and people who learn them and get on with them will have their comments mooted by aforementioned people who have not tried them and do not like the idea.

I can help but feel this will become the Tesla/Automotive equivalent of Apple Vs Android.

 

[ACarneiro]

I personally struggle to see the issue, to buttons are on the outside edge of the "stem" of the wheel and follow the same layout as a stalk e.g. up for right, down for left.

The problem is, like you have said in one of your other posts - people who have decided they don't like them without trying will not change their mind, and people who learn them and get on with them will have their comments mooted by aforementioned people who have not tried them and do not like the idea.

I can help but feel this will become the Tesla/Automotive equivalent of Apple Vs Android.

And when your steering wheel is 180 degrees turned, the buttons are on the wrong side of the wheel, right is now the lower button and left is now the upper one.

Can you now see why this might be an issue?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

The video I saw which I can’t find (not that it matters as the scenario is easy to explain) showed situations when the steering wheel was between 90 degree and 270 degree turned when a change of indicator direction was required (typically a right hand turn at a roundabout switching from indicating right to left, for those outside the uk feeling the need to comment on a UK subforum thread, remember we drive on the left), and the driver needed to effectively use their right hand to indicate, but what made the situation worse was the indicator position wasn’t just on the right and upside down compared to the left, it could be anywhere depending on the tightness of the roundabout, at a time when the steering lock was typically being removed, and at no point were the hands naturally in the right place.

I do accept that for many other scenarios it’s ok, but simple logic tells you that’s not going to be the case all the time.

 

[Oxid8ter]

And when your steering wheel is 180 degrees turned, the buttons are on the wrong side of the wheel, right is now the lower button and left is now the upper one.

Can you now see why this might be an issue?

I can, but I also managed to work out skip/back for the stereo on a previous multi function steering wheel.. so it's not impossible.

I did post yesterday (iirc) on the Highland order thread mentioning my situation though, which is probably a bit more idealistic than it is for most, with many roundabouts around here being big sweeping ones so you rarely need more than a quarter turn of the wheel on most occasions, but sure, I can admit that on those rare occasions where the wheel is upside down it would be frustrating and take some getting used to.

 

[ACarneiro]

I can, but I also managed to work out skip/back for the stereo on a previous multi function steering wheel.. so it's not impossible.

I did post yesterday (iirc) on the Highland order thread mentioning my situation though, which is probably a bit more idealistic than it is for most, with many roundabouts around here being big sweeping ones so you rarely need more than a quarter turn of the wheel on most occasions, but sure, I can admit that on those rare occasions where the wheel is upside down it would be frustrating and take some getting used to.

You can afford to wait to change your track and volume until the wheel is in a more neutral position, though, whilst (theoretically at least) you're forced to have to use the indicator buttons at the time of manoeuvring around a roundabout so the comparison is not exactly like for like.

 

[Oxid8ter]

I do accept that for many other scenarios it’s ok, but simple logic tells you that’s not going to be the case all the time.

I think this is a lot of it, a lot of people are "attacking" the lack of stalks based off of roundabouts (which, heck, we love in the UK!) But actually for a junction or similar where you are approaching straight, or on a large roundabout, I feel it's (at least to a certain extent) a non-issue.

For me personally, I might have the inconvenience of a mini roundabout, or need to change direction of indicating on a roundabout which needs more than 90⁰ in the wheel once or twice per week.

I'm not saying they will be perfect, and I am not saying they are the solution, I am just giving a different viewpoint until such a time that I have the car and can feedback real world how I got on with them.

 

[ACarneiro]

But actually for a junction or similar where you are approaching straight, or on a large roundabout, I feel it's (at least to a certain extent) a non-issue.

You are probably right, but safety equipment really should work in as broad a set of circumstances as possible, not just in the ideal scenario.

And, what's more, I still fail to see what actually there is to be gained by all this effort. If there was some sort of sensible trade-off then you could argue the case a bit more strongly.

 

[Oxid8ter]

You are probably right, but safety equipment really should work in as broad a set of circumstances as possible, not just in the ideal scenario.

And, what's more, I still fail to see what actually there is to be gained by all this effort. If there was some sort of sensible trade-off then you could argue the case a bit more strongly.

I guess the crux of it is that everyone's location/circumstances are different.

Like I stayed before, until I have tried it I will reserve formal judgement, but at this time I am just trying to play Devil's Advocate as I am coming to it with an open mind. If I can't get on with it then I will get some S3XY buttons and program 2 to be on the dash behind the wheel.

On your latter point, however I will concede, it does feel like an exercise in form over function.

 

[ACarneiro]

I guess the crux of it is that everyone's location/circumstances are different.

Like I stayed before, until I have tried it I will reserve formal judgement, but at this time I am just trying to play Devil's Advocate as I am coming to it with an open mind. If I can't get on with it then I will get some S3XY buttons and program 2 to be on the dash behind the wheel.

I believe aftermarket stalks are soon to be a thing so that might be a better mitigation, should you feel that you need it