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So what's the capacity of the latest battery?
- Thread starter Zorg
- Start date
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
That, I'm pretty sure is not true. There's no way that the battery capacity has not changed in 4 years.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Think what you like, but it’s quite true. Crawl under a brand new Model S and look at the battery sticker for yourself. It says 100kwh plain as day.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I think the efficiency numbers they quote are questionable at best. I agree that the math does not work out when you use range, efficiency and battery capacity together.
Then, efficiency would have to be 250Wh/mile or less, and it isn't as per the EPA sticker, so it sure ain't 100KWh.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Yes
I’m sorry, you’re still wrong.
“Starting today, all North American Model S Long Range Plus vehicles have an official EPA-rated range of 402 miles, representing a nearly 20% increase in range when compared to a 2019 Model S 100D with the same battery pack design”
Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle
This might also help shed light:
The Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers
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Ok, I did the same math on the old X 100D and the LR+, and they both come in at 115/118KWh. So I am missing something on the math. That being said I don't believe that they haven't improved battery capacity in 4 years. It's unlike Tesla
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Like I said, look for yourself. Why would the battery sticker lie?
Go look at the online parts catalog - https://epc.tesla.com. Find any battery part numbers with a capacity over 100kwh?
Belief doesn’t play into it. Facts are facts.
The trouble we have is when we use rated consumption and rated range to calculate usable capacity. So, speaking from "facts," at least the ones Tesla gives us, you find the following (sorry, Model X numbers here - someone can add Model S if they wish):
LR+: rated range 351mi * rated consumption 300Wh/mi = 105,300Wh
LR++: rated range 371mi * rated consumption 284Wh/mi = 105,300Wh
This calculation has worked to show available capacity on all other battery revisions. So, as @aesculus mentions above, something isn't right. One or more of the following seems to be true:
- Tesla is overstating EPA range
- Tesla is overstating rated consumption
- Tesla is delivering larger packs under a 100kWh label
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Forgive me I haven’t slept in going on 45 hours now. But how can battery density increase but battery size stay the same?
beatle
Active Member
Size in this case is the number of cells. The latest packs still have the same number of cells as the original 100 kwh packs, but changes in chemistry push the capacity (density) higher.
All of the gains in range are not due to battery though. There are also improvements to motor efficiency. The front DU now uses a more efficient permanent magnet motor, and there are software changes such as perhaps leaning on the front motor more to drive the car.
All of the gains in range are not due to battery though. There are also improvements to motor efficiency. The front DU now uses a more efficient permanent magnet motor, and there are software changes such as perhaps leaning on the front motor more to drive the car.
BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
Don't the EPA Wh/mile numbers also take charging loss/inefficiency into the calculations?
1 kWh coming out of your socket or HPWC doesn't exactly equate to 1 kWh going into the battery.
1 kWh coming out of your socket or HPWC doesn't exactly equate to 1 kWh going into the battery.
beatle
Active Member
They only account for the power coming out of the car, not how it got there. Charging efficiency varies wildly depending on whether you're charging at various rates on 240v or 120v AC as well as DC fast charging which is the most efficient since it has nothing to do with the car's onboard charger. Even the same charging voltage and current can have different amounts of loss depending on the temperature and the starting and ending SoC.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Where do you get the Wh/mile rating from ?
I looked up this Model S model on fuel economy.gov
Range: 387 miles
MPGe combined: 110
Wh/mile from the meter: 33,700/110 = 306.36 Wh/mile
Wh/mile in the car: 288*0.88 (approximate) = 269.6
Usable capacity then equals 0.269.6*387 = 104.33 kWh
The same arithmetic for the 402 mile range LR+ Model S works out to 101.89 kWh
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Chemistry can affect either or both of:
Volumetric energy density (Wh/liter)
Mass energy density (Wh/Kg)
I don't know why the battery sticker would lie, but it does lie. Tesla has been lying on battery stickers since 2012 - the "85 kwh" battery packs had 81 kwh capacity back then, and a new 2020 battery replacement for that old 2012 will still have a sticker that says "85kwh" today but the new "85" actually has more capacity than cars that were delivered with a battery that had a 90kwh sticker. As often as not the sticker is a lie. Always has been.
Honesty isn't Tesla's strongest quality but they do make higher capacity batteries today than the stickers would make you believe, that is a known fact.
Honesty isn't Tesla's strongest quality but they do make higher capacity batteries today than the stickers would make you believe, that is a known fact.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Again, because this bears repeating, there is zero evidence that current packs have altered chemistries that resulted in higher energy density. This is pure speculation.
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