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It makes no sense to me that utilities want to complain about distributed generation, yet they (or the ISOs) are not making any effort to put hard numbers on the problem.

My theory on that is that their business revenue model was based on ROI (assets). There has never been any incentive to control costs or understand them. As a solar owner I don't mind paying my share of distribution costs if I could trust the utilities to fairly state their costs.
I would also like to see hard numbers.
Just to make sure you're not talking passed each other, I think @miimura is talking about the concern we often here about distributed resources straining system operations; but if they aren't measured, how do they know? @Ampster, I think you're going to the point about utilities disliking distributed resources because they can't earn a return on them, while they do on utility-owned generation and the associated transmission assets. Both are fair, but separate, points.

Re @Ampster's "fairly state their costs," this is a really complicated issue. Utilities already have an army of internal, external, and state auditors looking at their books, so I think it's safe to say that the numbers used in rate case are "hard". What's squishy is the allocation among rate classes and line items with in a rate. E.g., should all transmission costs be treated as fixed, because in the short run nothing changes by using them more, or variable, because heavily used lines will eventually be upgraded to handle the extra flow? Even if the costs are considered fix, what specific metric should be used to allocate to residential, commercial, industrial, and municipal customers? There are a lot of precedents for answering these questions, but nothing that is obviously "right".
 
...then they have to get the customers to agree to it through regulation-land. Even if they make the costs "fairer", it makes a good sensational news story to show how an old man who uses only 100 kWh/month saw his power bill double during the fixed vs. variable cost redistribution exercise by Big, Mean, Nasty Utility, Inc. Regulators love the storm of calls after a story like that airs.
 
Here's an interesting bit of news I heard from my co-op this morning. Right now, if you have excess generation, their policy is to hold it as credits for up to 3 months to offset excess consumption in future months. Now that they're almost complete with the restructuring of their fixed vs. variable cost redistribution, they're considering eliminating the kWh credits and simply issuing cash at full retail rate for generators at 40 kW or less. We don't have TOU billing here, so there's no worry about crazy arbitrage schemes and stuff, but the policy can adapt to that when the time comes.

To me, this is a great move. Because it's a co-op, it's a matter of one owner/member paying another for consumption.

Investor-owned utilities will have an issue with adopting such a policy, obviously, but perhaps this will spur on more robust regional infrastructure and co-ops to go with them.
 
California lawmakers about to mandate 50% renewable energy for the state (by 2050), up from 33% by 2020:

"In a move that could shape California’s climate policies for decades to come, legislators on Tuesday introduced a series of bills that would slash oil use in half by 2050, mandate the use of renewable power for 50 percent of the state’s electricity and force California’s massive public retirement funds to dump coal company stocks."

Here’s how California lawmakers plan to cut greenhouse gases - SFGate

They should really set the goal sooner, 50% by 2040 should be a slam dunk with storage coming up to speed.

RT
 
Interesting article; behind a paywall, but I'll quote the interesting bits:
Calif.'s solar industry employs more people than state's utilities
The California solar industry now employs almost 55,000 people, more than the state's three major utilities -- Pacific Gas and Electric Co. (about 20,000), Southern California Edison (more than 13,600) and San Diego Gas & Electric (about 5,000). That's a utility job roll of about 38,600.
...

SolarCity, the country's largest solar installer and based in the San Francisco Bay Area, employs more than 9,000 people. Meanwhile, Twitter, one of the most well-known social media companies, employs 3,600. Twilio, a cloud computing company, employs about 300, while Dropbox, an online storage firm, employs 977 people.
...

Across the country, jobs in the solar industry grew last year by 22 percent to 174,000 jobs, according to a study by the Solar Foundation. It added employment last year at a rate almost 20 times faster than the overall economy.
 
Apple bought California Flats, yesterday, 130MW for $850mm.
What Apple Just Did in Solar Is a Really Big Deal - Bloomberg Business
The sheer scale of corporate PPA's, heading off what I believe were intended to be grid supplied commercial utility investments, is part of what has to be driving the labor boost. The irony is that, like Keystone, the labor to build, and the labor to operate are two different realities. The ITC's 2016 phase-down will greatly accelerate the former.
 
I realize that as a co-op owner-member that we're much smaller and have a smaller customer base to spread our infrastructure costs against, but $6/mo. is nowhere near what our fixed infrastructure cost shares are - it's more like $50 or $60/month.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but that's simply too high: that's death-spiral pricing. If you have an efficient home (<1000kWh / month) and you use most of your power during the day, you can beat that cost with solar + batteries TODAY. Of course, when all the energy-efficient homeowners leave your coop, the fixed cost is spread over an even smaller customer base -- if they raise the charges to compensate, then even *more* people benefit from leaving the coop to go off the grid. Repeat until coop is bankrupt.
 
I mentioned this elsewhere, but that's simply too high: that's death-spiral pricing.

Agreed... I'm paying ~$700/yr for the power I generate... once the production credits expire if they aren't playing fair I'm done. At that price I might as well buy diesel generator for the few days I'll need it... Production/Capacity should play NO ROLE in my electric bill.

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Agreed... I'm paying ~$700/yr for the power I generate... once the production credits expire if they aren't playing fair I'm done. At that price I might as well buy diesel generator for the few days I'll need it... Production/Capacity should play NO ROLE in my electric bill.

It's definitely time for you to start pricing out the cost of going completely off-grid.

I'm guessing you already have a very efficient house, but if you have any efficiency improvements you can make (superinsulation, replacing old AC with high-COP heat pumps, LED lighting, more efficient fridge, etc.), now is the time to do it. Are your loads dominated by heating/cooling, or by lighting?

Then start tracking your daily usage so you can see (a) whether you need some extra solar panels, and (b) how many batteries you need to ride out any dark days. Then see what your physical space constraints are. You may be able to do this without a diesel generator.
 
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I mentioned this elsewhere, but that's simply too high: that's death-spiral pricing. If you have an efficient home (<1000kWh / month) and you use most of your power during the day, you can beat that cost with solar + batteries TODAY. Of course, when all the energy-efficient homeowners leave your coop, the fixed cost is spread over an even smaller customer base -- if they raise the charges to compensate, then even *more* people benefit from leaving the coop to go off the grid. Repeat until coop is bankrupt.

See the other thread, the payback for solar installation will - at today's prices here - be 16+ years before you get payback, and that's *with* government incentives.
 
See the other thread, the payback for solar installation will - at today's prices here - be 16+ years before you get payback, and that's *with* government incentives.

Professional or DIY? I recently priced a system for a friend... ~$1.2/w ($0.84/w after FTC) that's a <6 year payback.

Then start tracking your daily usage so you can see (a) whether you need some extra solar panels, and (b) how many batteries you need to ride out any dark days. Then see what your physical space constraints are. You may be able to do this without a diesel generator.

Already done; With 20kWh of batteries I can be off-grid ~Feb through Dec. I'm still holding out hope that our PUC wises up... ~$700/yr is absurd and I'd rather sell power than charge a battery. Everyone wins.
 
See the other thread, the payback for solar installation will - at today's prices here - be 16+ years before you get payback, and that's *with* government incentives.
OK, I've been talking on too many threads and can't find the referenced link...

...what's wrong with your numbers? Because those numbers are wrong.

-- is insolation terrible? It should be better in St. Louis than in NY.
-- Are you getting gouged by installers? Do some comparison shopping.

Or, perhaps most likely: Do you have an inefficient, high-energy-usage house? My calculation was entirely dependent on having a <1000kwh/month house. (And less than that would be even better.)

The fixed charges don't amount to much if you have high energy costs to start with. It's when you have low energy costs to start with that they become a strong incentive to go off the grid. Because you need a relatively small solar installation and relatively small batteries -- and you eliminate that enormous $480/year charge.

Remember, for 1000 kwh/month, a $40/month charge is equivalent to 4 cents per kwh. For 500 kwh/month, it's equivalent to 8 cents per kwh. That's a *huge* thumb on the scales in favor of going off the grid. But for a 4000 kwh/month household, it's only equivalent to 1 cent per kwh, which is not significant.

Large fixed charges are all very well if the goal is to drive small, efficient houses off the grid, but I don't think that's the goal...
 
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It's here:
Koch Brothers Attack Net Metering and Solar - Page 6

But I don't mind bringing it here.

The numbers are not wrong, they're based upon multiple quotes that we've gotten from several installers. If you want to go off-grid from a current grid installation, you're looking at 16 years with incentives, and you can't make it work without incentives - at least within the equipment timeframe.

Remember that for anyone using 1,000-1,200 kWh/month, it's break-even for them. The variable/usage charges were reduced / growth-arrested in exchange for a higher meter charge. It's no additional revenue for the co-op, it's just a shift of the costs from variable to fixed.

Yes, the bill is higher for someone who uses less than 1,000 kWh/month, but lower for someone who uses more than 1,000 kWh.
 
My payback was also a modest 17 years as our power is a low $.085/KWh. But even here I calculate my IRR to be 4.6% after taxes and indexed for inflation. That is much better than I can do with a CD or bonds and the "investment" is more stable and safer than stocks.

And some things like doing all I can to help cut CO2 and live by example are hard to put a price on. But I believe are the right things to do.
 
My payback was also a modest 17 years as our power is a low $.085/KWh. But even here I calculate my IRR to be 4.6% after taxes and indexed for inflation. That is much better than I can do with a CD or bonds and the "investment" is more stable and safer than stocks.

And some things like doing all I can to help cut CO2 and live by example are hard to put a price on. But I believe are the right things to do.

Over the past decade I have a better return than that. That aside, likewise I think it's the right thing to do; I have 18.5 kW of panels up on the various roofs and will likely consider adding another 9-10 kW next year as long as Illinois continues its 25% incentive. Without the state or federal incentive, I can't do it because I can't even get a payback within the panel life. Most of my neighbors are shaking their heads - they can't afford the outlay and the payback isn't near enough for them to consider it.

So I do want to do it because it helps the environment, it's an investment in the property value, a hedge against the current government's desire to regulate my less-expensive energy prices higher, and well it's cool technology.

(Also keep in mind that while my 9 cents per kWh is cheap via my co-op, my parents' Ameren bill has been averaging 5-6 cents per kWh for a while now, and you can't even make solar work there *WITH* the incentives!)

I am working with a local electrician who wants to develop his company to install solar at a better price to make it worthwhile. If we can get the installed price between $2-3/W, then it becomes worthwhile for a far greater number of people.
 
Professional or DIY? I recently priced a system for a friend... ~$1.2/w ($0.84/w after FTC) that's a <6 year payback.

That's obviously professional price. Unfortunately, I don't have the hours to invest in DIY (and there are essential nuggets of knowledge I'm missing, I'm sure). I tried several different firms and they were all right around $4/W, with least expensive being $3.90 for less-efficient panels + microinverters.

I did price parts for a DIY system on my brother's garage, as he was interested in it. Before shipping and labor I came up with something like $2/W using 245W panels available on eBay and a couple of SMA string inverters, including racking, wiring, and all the goods.
 
That's obviously professional price. Unfortunately, I don't have the hours to invest in DIY (and there are essential nuggets of knowledge I'm missing, I'm sure). I tried several different firms and they were all right around $4/W, with least expensive being $3.90 for less-efficient panels + microinverters.

I did price parts for a DIY system on my brother's garage, as he was interested in it. Before shipping and labor I came up with something like $2/W using 245W panels available on eBay and a couple of SMA string inverters, including racking, wiring, and all the goods.

We can hit $3/watt for Canadian Solar systems. SunPower is slightly over $4.