Southern Ontario Tesla Owner's Club

[mknox]

Just playing devils advocate here, but where is the incentive for the utility to want to balance their load when they can just pass the costs on to us and make more money during On Peak hours by raising prices?

Technically, there is no reason, but politically, there is a huge one. The majority (but not all) of Ontario's generation fleet is owned by Ontario Power Generation (OPG) whose sole shareholder is the Province of Ontario. OPG maintains nuclear and hydro for baseload generation, and uses gas peaker plants (often under contract to the IESO) to handle the spikes... and those spikes are getting much more severe as intermittent solar and wind becomes more prevalent. As you can imagine, it is very expensive to build a power plant that only runs a few hours a year, and those costs would get passed on to consumers in the commodity charge. There is also an impact on transmission and distribution assets which have to be built to carry the highest peak demand, even if it only occurs for one hour a year. It is much less expensive to fund Demand Response programs than to build expensive plants that sit idle for most of their lives.

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However, the utility has to purchase that power from the U.S. at a very high rate. So it would be advantageous to them to not have to purchase electricity during very high usage.

Not so much any more. Ontario has been in a surplus position for some time now such that our exports are often sold when there is already a glut and prices can get very low. This is an interesting site if you're interested in Ontario's supply mix.

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Isn't growth good for a business?

Sure, but do you want growth in the building of traditional power plants or do you want it in the development of Smart Grids, battery storage, renewables, conservation and the like?

 

[Duckjybe]

Thanks for clarifying.

Any chance we will see a battery storage incentive in Ontario?

 

[mibaro2]

Thanks mknox. Seems I haven't kept up with the times.

 

[mknox]

Any chance we will see a battery storage incentive in Ontario?

I think eventually we will. I was fortunate to have participated on the Ontario Energy Board's Smart Grid Working Group, Smart Grid Advisory Panel as well as a couple of working groups which is making recommendations in this regard.

Here is a paper that one of our Working Groups prepared on storage.

Here is a link to Toronto Hydro's battery storage pilot.

Here is a link to PowerStream's V2G and V2H pilot with Nissan.

 

[wayner]

Any chance we will see a battery storage incentive in Ontario?

As opposed to the current disincentive.

 

[mknox]

As opposed to the current disincentive.

Curious. What's the disincentive? AFAIK, there's nothing stopping anyone from using such a system with solar or without for peak shifting. There isn't a really big difference between On Peak and Off Peak in Ontario making the economics weak, but rates are designed to recover costs, not incentivize particular technologies.

 

[wayner]

Curious. What's the disincentive? AFAIK, there's nothing stopping anyone from using such a system with solar or without for peak shifting.

The MicroFIT program is the disncentive that I am referring to. If you can sell the solar power that you can generate at $0.384 (or more if you got in a few years ago) then it doesn't make sense to use it yourself, even if you can store it, unless the price for power goes up above that. The current all-in max price in Toronto is around $0.21/kWh. I guess the exception is if you want to install more than 10kW of capacity - then batteries allow you to arb the peak vs non-peak pricing.

I am getting solar panels installed in the next few weeks. By my calculation the IRR on the panels is 14% after tax - this assumes a 50% tax rate, CCA of 50%/year, $32.5k up front cost and annual revenue of $5k from selling my power for $0.384/kWh for 20 years. I am in a very good location as I have a lot of surface area on my roof and the back of my house faces SSE. I already have an evacuated tube water heating system installed to heat my pool water.

 

[mknox]

The MicroFIT program is the disncentive that I am referring to.

Ahh, okay. But for the real keeners, there is the FIT program although it is aimed more at large commercial and industrials.

Personally, I always thought we'd see more large FIT solar farms that folks could buy shares in, or would operate as a co-op. There are a couple, but not many. Some folks may not want solar on their own roof, can't put it on their own roof or would like to invest in something they can "take with them" if they move. Owning shares in a solar farm would allow this.

My primary residence is not ideal for solar (trees) but I own a rental property that would be ideal. Problem is, I don't know how long I'm going to hold on to that property and am not inclined to make a big investment into it right now.

 

[ZsoZso]

Not so much any more. Ontario has been in a surplus position for some time now such that our exports are often sold when there is already a glut and prices can get very low. This is an interesting site if you're interested in Ontario's supply mix.

I am surprised that there is no mention of solar PV in the sources on that site, even though there are a lot of FIT and MicroFIT projects AFAIK (myself having a small contribution to it, and also know about some larger industrial FIT installs, such as Linemar in Guelph). I have checked the site in the middle of sunny days and still do not see any contribution from Solar PV.

Is it possible that FIT projects do not show up because the demand displayed is already the difference between real demand minus the FIT contribution ?

 

[mknox]

Is it possible that FIT projects do not show up because the demand displayed is already the difference between real demand minus the FIT contribution ?

I believe that Distribution-connected generation does not show up... only Transmission-connected. There is a lot of small solar in Ontario but it is really load displacement generation for the most part at the local utilization point. So yes, the Ontario demand would already have been offset by this type of thing just as it is via conservation program activity for the past couple of years.

 

[top agent]

When is the next meet?

i'm getting my TESLA next month!!! i can't wait

 

[mibaro2]

Welcome to the forum!

Gonna be a long few weeks for you! :biggrin:

JgDixon normally sends out the next meet details since he is the founder of this club.

 

[SmartElectric]

When is the next meet?

i'm getting my TESLA next month!!! i can't wait

Me too. Just purchased S85 CPO. Taking delivery in the next few weeks.

 

[wolfpet]

Welcome!

 

[Not an Ice]

Got my $8,500 cheque today from Mr Wynne, purchase was March 18. Only downside was Service Ontario said it was mailed May 25, nota chance. All good

 

[Phillip L]

Got my $8,500 cheque today from Mr Wynne, purchase was March 18. Only downside was Service Ontario said it was mailed May 25, nota chance. All good

Since I got my Model S a week after yours does that mean I might finally get my cheque. I need it to help pay for the garage I am building for my baby to keep the birds from constantly crapping on it!

 

[Jgdixon]

Hello everyone,
Sorry I have left this so late and without much notice.
I have scheduled our meeting for next Thursday June 25[SUP]th[/SUP].
The location is the same as the last one, Fortino’s in Maple.
The actual address is 2911 Major Mackenzie Drive in Vaughan (just east of Jane St.)
The room will be open at 6:30 and Pizza and beverages will be available then.
We will formally start the meeting at 7:00 and go to 9:00 although we have the room until 9:30.
The food will be refreshed at 7:00 for the meeting. (I’ve asked for some vegetarian pizza based on your requests)

Please RSVP if you plan to attend and let me know if you have any specific request for the agenda.
If I don't have your info yet please email me at [email protected]
Thanks
John

 

[Randyman]

Finally received my Car 2015 P85D

Hello To All,
Glad to finally be here. Just received my 2015 P85D, love it and looking to see if there are any groups in the GTA or meetings. If not where would be the closest one to go too.

Absolutely LOVE this car so far.....

Pics when i went to pick it up.... :tongue::tongue::love:

 

[tsarlsy]

Hello To All,
Glad to finally be here. Just received my 2015 P85D, love it and looking to see if there are any groups in the GTA or meetings. If not where would be the closest one to go too.

There's one coming up this Thursday. PM JGDIXON.

 

[Duckjybe]

There's one coming up this Thursday. PM JGDIXON.

And in order to join one has to let long time club members take a spin in your car :wink: