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SpaceX Internet Satellite Network: Starlink

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Based on what evidence?

........ if Telesat actually pulls the trigger on their internet constellation that means they convinced someone who's sole business is ROI that the constellation can actually turn a healthy profit. Furthermore, given Starlink's performance to date and its inevitable future, that necessarily means Telesat can offer product that can compete with Starlink.
Sorry for the disagree, but.....

You are disillusioned.
Have you lived in Canada?
Canadian communications companies CONSTANTLY bombard us with their rhetoric of their investment in "fantastic service", yet we have the most expensive communication costs in the developed world. Service - yes, fantastic in all major centres (which is where it is profitable), and terrible everywhere else. I live 60 miles from Toronto, and 3 miles from a 30,000 population city ( so, hardly, out in the wilderness), but my cell service is awful, and internet is marginal, at best. Both, stupidly expensive. I've tried satellite internet - poor quality, latent and even more expensive. I cannot imagine what it is like to live in a really remote community.

However, the telcos are all VERY profitable, and we "sheep" in Canada are prepared to live with this

IF the Telsat project gets the private funding it needs, my "evidence" is based on the history of telcos in Canada: The project will be profitable (read expensive), and the Feds will heavily subsidize marginalized, remote communities for its' use. The service will be spotty - probably only really serving the far north, where the Feds will pick up the cost
 
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...my "evidence" is based on the history of telcos in Canada...

So that is to say, no evidence at all.

In fact, Telcos provide clear evidence to the contrary in this conversation. Telcos the world over--especially telco giants--have a history of back room, hand shake, or otherwise reciprocal agreements that effectively minimize or even eliminate competition in rural areas...and even when they don't, their product offerings in those areas are left wanting as the revenue vs cap/opex of maintaining/upgrading that rural infrastructure is no where near as profitable as higher density locations. Users are left with a choice of crappy service from Telco A or crappy service (potentially in a different crappy way) from Telco B

That is in fact, the exact reason Starlink will be successful in many of those areas--there's a point on the population density curve where terrestrial infrastructure simply doesn't pay out. (Sidenote: That point is moving)

Of course, unlike the telcos that have all basically agreed to provide crappy service in low density areas, Telesat will have an obvious and unrelenting global competitor in Starlink and, unless there's some completely out of character policy reversal that shuts down Starlink, a clear an unrelenting Canadian competitor in Starlink. In other words, the history of telcos in Canada is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is the inevitable success/competition of Starlink.

The project will be profitable (read expensive), and the Feds will heavily subsidize marginalized, remote communities for its' use.

Indeed if Telesat goes forward, it will be profitable, again because the bankers behind the project will necessarily hang on to their loonies until they are convinced of profitability. AND, since it is very clear that Telesat needs to be globally profitable to actually be a successful--that is, there's simply not enough user base in Canadia for a profitability case--Telesat will have to offer a product globally competitive with Starlink. That means competitive price, speed, and latency.

There is no evidence that Telesat will be "expensive", in fact clear and obvious logic clearly favors the contrary: Telesat will necessarily need to be cost competitive with Starlink on the open market of unsubsidized subscribers.

There is no evidence that Telesat speed will be slow. Their global capacity will likely be in the ~20 terrabits range, with a self-advertised 8 terrabits/s as "usable"--that is, over areas with people that will actually pay for service.

There is no evidence that Telesat latency will be slow. Geometry + practical bottlenecks suggests 30-50ms is likely.

Finally, there is no possible way subsidies alone will make Telesat profitable, so whatever Hunky J's finance minions do for poor people in marginalized remote communities, it will make no bearing on Telesat's success.

The service will be spotty - probably only really serving the far north, where the Feds will pick up the cost

Once again, no actual evidence here, and in fact basic and very available evidence clearly supports contrary logic. Telesat will necessarily be comprehensive global coverage without gaps, save for the issues all satellite services have [to varying degrees] with line-of-sight, weather degradation, etc. Their most comprehensive latitudes of coverage will include northern USA and southern Canada, more or less the same as Starlink. (That's where most of the rural population lives--globally--that can also afford internet)

Any 'spotty' service will solely be the result of overcrowding which, of course while plausible, is improbable as that will simply drive customers to an alternate solution like Starlink. The Free Market will demand Telesat to manage their subscriber density.



To summarize, effectively what you're saying is that Telesat is going to provide crappy service and will only be successful because people will freely choose Telesat's crappy service over Starlink's [ostensibly] solid service. That makes as much sense as someone choosing to keep their crappy mobile service when a different mobile operator offers full bars in the same area.
 
So that is to say, no evidence at all........

To summarize, effectively what you're saying is that Telesat is going to provide crappy service and will only be successful because people will freely choose Telesat's crappy service over Starlink's [ostensibly] solid service. That makes as much sense as someone choosing to keep their crappy mobile service when a different mobile operator offers full bars in the same area.

We'll have to agree to disagree, here.

Both of our arguments are based on what might happen should the project go forward.

Your argument claims that it is based on evidence. Other than the fact that the technology exists to make it so, there is no evidence that Telsat will use it to its full extent, and most of that will be based on the stomachs of the financial backers. It will also be at a significant cost disadvantage to Starlink for launching these satellites.
Your comparison of the mobile phone operator is not correct at all.

Canada has a significant history of supporting inefficient companies (see Bombardier) and supporting marginalized areas with grants/tax breaks etc. Telsat must "go big or go home" if it is to compete with Starlink both in Canada AND the USA. My bet is that they won't...and follow the path of so many other Companies; create a company that can provide a service, and it will be inefficient and costly.......and the Government will keep it afloat because it will pay some/most of the cost to remote and aboriginal communities

So, based on history, people in very remote areas will freely choose Telsat's crappy service over Starlink (obstensibly) solid service.....because the Feds will be paying for most of it.

End of this for now. We can chat later, should the Telsat deal go forward.

.....back to the main thread
 
Back to actual starlink...

I see the public beta began 2 weeks ago. $99/month and $500 bucks of home ground equipment to buy. That’s not a great beta if you ask me...
That may depend on your situation. If you have no internet service at all at your location, you might think it was fantastic. My understanding is that they are focusing on rural remote subscribers for now.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree, here.

Both of our arguments are based on what might happen should the project go forward.

Your argument claims that it is based on evidence. Other than the fact that the technology exists to make it so, there is no evidence that Telsat will use it to its full extent, and most of that will be based on the stomachs of the financial backers. It will also be at a significant cost disadvantage to Starlink for launching these satellites.
Your comparison of the mobile phone operator is not correct at all.

Canada has a significant history of supporting inefficient companies (see Bombardier) and supporting marginalized areas with grants/tax breaks etc. Telsat must "go big or go home" if it is to compete with Starlink both in Canada AND the USA. My bet is that they won't...and follow the path of so many other Companies; create a company that can provide a service, and it will be inefficient and costly.......and the Government will keep it afloat because it will pay some/most of the cost to remote and aboriginal communities

So, based on history, people in very remote areas will freely choose Telsat's crappy service over Starlink (obstensibly) solid service.....because the Feds will be paying for most of it.

End of this for now. We can chat later, should the Telsat deal go forward.

.....back to the main thread[/
We'll have to agree to disagree, here.

Both of our arguments are based on what might happen should the project go forward.

Your argument claims that it is based on evidence. Other than the fact that the technology exists to make it so, there is no evidence that Telsat will use it to its full extent, and most of that will be based on the stomachs of the financial backers. It will also be at a significant cost disadvantage to Starlink for launching these satellites.
Your comparison of the mobile phone operator is not correct at all.

Canada has a significant history of supporting inefficient companies (see Bombardier) and supporting marginalized areas with grants/tax breaks etc. Telsat must "go big or go home" if it is to compete with Starlink both in Canada AND the USA. My bet is that they won't...and follow the path of so many other Companies; create a company that can provide a service, and it will be inefficient and costly.......and the Government will keep it afloat because it will pay some/most of the cost to remote and aboriginal communities

So, based on history, people in very remote areas will freely choose Telsat's crappy service over Starlink (obstensibly) solid service.....because the Feds will be paying for most of it.

End of this for now. We can chat later, should the Telsat deal go forward.

.....back to the main thread
Agree with you Murray, have you gotten an invite yet? (Bill)
 
Back to actual starlink...

I see the public beta began 2 weeks ago. $99/month and $500 bucks of home ground equipment to buy. That’s not a great beta if you ask me...

There's a reason they called it the "Better Than Nothing" beta.

They make people pay a real price because they want real customers, rather than people who just want to play with new tech.

The private beta was almost free.
 
This made me laugh out loud.

Starlink will have to compete with a subsidized Canadian telecommunications company.... I just read an article about internet data costs in the developed world. There were 3 Canadian companies, Rogers, Bell, and Telus included in this group of 126 providers. The 3 most expensive providers, world-wide: Bell, Rogers, and Telus. Canada allows for fat, inefficient telcos, who gobble up any small competitor as they appear. Telsat is cut from the same cloth. They'll not be able to do this with Starlink.

Telsat will come out with a half-baked, barely usable, expensive system, and only the extremely remote, subsidized communities will use it. The rest of the rural population will be unsubsidized (like me) and pushed to pay a fortune for a poor system.

Starlink will MOP THE FLOOR with Telsat, then proceed to eat into Telus, Rogers, and Bell's market.....and I can't wait!


Wow! I have a 5 phone contract with Rogers. We share 30 Gbs, unltd x country calling, unlimited data etc, etc. Cost is 5 x $49.40. Lot less than my friend in Calif pays for his cel
 
Current known beta region in green, prior to the Canadian beta opening up
tFSM601
tFSM601.png
 
range of beta users known including Canada, the list is changing fast so this will be a point in time snapshot you can look back to in X number of days.

Oh yeah, and for pricing

Starlink’s initial pricing — $100 per month and $499 to purchase the Starlink user terminal — is not a beta-only introductory price but reflects what pricing will be in the full commercial service, Starlink Vice President Jonathan Hofeller said.

Terminal cost: $499 US or $649.00 CAD (based on location, Starlink will gives a single rate, not your choice of currency)

Monthly Fee: $99 US or $129.00 CAD (based on location, Starlink will gives a single rate, not your choice of currency)

upload_2020-11-14_1-10-42.png
 
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range of beta users known including Canada, the list is changing fast so this will be a point in time snapshot you can look back to in X number of days.
oh, shucks......I'm too far south to be a beta test subject in Canada, at 43.5.

I know, this sounds a bit odd to my American friends, but a lot of Canada is south of a big chunk of the Northern USA.
....A good bar bet..... Ask someone to name the first country they'd hit, if they were to go south from Detroit. It's Canada (Windsor Ontario)......
 
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oh, shucks......I'm too far south to be a beta test subject in Canada, at 43.5.

I know, this sounds a bit odd to my American friends, but a lot of Canada is south of a big chunk of the Northern USA.
....A good bar bet..... Ask someone to name the first country they'd hit, if they were to go south from Detroit. It's Canada (Windsor Ontario)......

It's only a matter of weeks for them to open up the 40 to 45 degree bands, edit: or even further.

Big expansion of beta program in 6 to 8 weeks!

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1327645031100940288
 
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Leaving the city and 200mbps to move to the country an top speed out here is 20mbps. Northern Ohio so I’m hoping I get a beta invite. The last month of usage in town was 1800gb of data. My wife an kids might die once they get capped.

20mbps is barely enough to stream broadband. HughesNet only does 25mbps down. Not many rural options for those of us dependent on broadband. Should be so much demand for Starlink. I wonder when it will be generally available.
 
Leaving the city and 200mbps to move to the country an top speed out here is 20mbps. Northern Ohio so I’m hoping I get a beta invite. The last month of usage in town was 1800gb of data. My wife an kids might die once they get capped.
Same

Greater Toronto area has awesome data speed. Outside there.....?
My daughter lives about 4 miles away from me, in a small city, and gets 200mbps. 1 mile outside of the urban area *chuckle*, high speed completely disappears

My neighbours up the street would kill for 20 mbps. I am at the end of a DSL, and I get 10 mbps ( closer to 7 most days) - *enough* for Netflix if no one else in the house is downloading. The rest of the neighbours are microwave or satellite....and they complain about it constantly. They're hoping that Starlink is a "go" - and that I can test it for them. Love to be on the bleeding edge
 
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As an Alaskan, looking at the Live Starlink Map shown above (Starlink satellite tracker), I see that -

1. We're good if I go back to Attu (one of my favorite places on the planet); also Ketchikan (one of my least favorite)

2. Otherwise, my neverending envy of Norway and now Iceland! regarding Superchargers is a tiny bit mollified in seeing they are in the same nonexistent Starlink boat as we.

Same old, same old, in other words.
 
2. Otherwise, my neverending envy of Norway and now Iceland! regarding Superchargers is a tiny bit mollified in seeing they are in the same nonexistent Starlink boat as we.

Yeah, when you look at population distribution by latitude there’s really not a lot of people once you get above the high 50’s. The way orbits work you have to have a disproportionately large number is satellites/users to get up that high compared to building a constellation to serve the mid-latitudes (like the in process constellation does).

The good news is that it sounds like Starlink at some point launch a high inclination constellation, so at some point you’ll be covered. Also Telesat, if they ever actually get off the ground, is also likely to start their constellation with high inclinations and, as noted upthread, will provide more or less the same service as Starlink. So there’s a reasonable chance you’ll have two options in the coming years, civil war notwithstanding.
 
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I'm curious as to how they decide who gets to beta test and who doesn't? I signed up really early on, live in Washington, but also live in a fairly forested area. I just downloaded the app and will do the "vision test" today on top of my roof. I'm curious as to what it will tell me. I wonder if they have staff look at satellite imagery at each potential beta test location and if they are near trees they skip over you. I think I will have a pretty high angle of view, more towards 45 degrees in some spots so I might just have to wait until the density increases.