Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[flai54]

Pilot assist in Volvos is a button press on the left. It sounds like Tesla’s is like that, in which case I agree it beats stalk for enabling

I would argue that most if not all cars nowadays allow you to set cruise control settings on the wheel. It would make 100% sense that Tesla allows drivers to enable TACC/Autosteer using the scroll wheels on the steering wheel. But of course Tesla has to be different and create extra stress on the gear stalks to use cruise control with stalks.

Of course now that the Model S/X and soon to be Model 3 will be without the gear stalk then it implements the activation of TACC/Autopilot using the scroll wheels.

 

[whitex]

Tesla just raised the yoke option to $1,000. Maybe they think people will like it more if it costs more? Or maybe nobody is buying it so it's a whole lot of hassle to keep it in production. Considering a round wheel retrofit was $700, and people did pay to rid their car of the yoke, maybe the $1,000 is a reverse retrofit done at the service center before delivery (like dual AC chargers were after Tesla stopped installing them at the factory, since not a lot of people bought the 80A option).

 

[Midpack]

I would argue that most if not all cars nowadays allow you to set cruise control settings on the wheel. It would make 100% sense that Tesla allows drivers to enable TACC/Autosteer using the scroll wheels on the steering wheel. But of course Tesla has to be different and create extra stress on the gear stalks to use cruise control with stalks.

Of course now that the Model S/X and soon to be Model 3 will be without the gear stalk then it implements the activation of TACC/Autopilot using the scroll wheels.

A fair point that’s being overlooked? Maybe not turn signals yet, but more and more controls are moving to steering wheels from all carmakers - and drivers seem to be adapring easily. Furthermore thousands of Model S & X owners have many months of experience with stalkless and there doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Most of the dissenters haven’t even tried them and given them a chance (one test drive isn’t enough) - they just know better than actual users…

Admittedly turn signals on the wheel are an issue in roundabouts, a downside versus other upsides. To the poster who said it’s also a disadvantage for K-turns, get serious. Most of us rarely do K-turns, and you wouldn’t do it in traffic so signals aren’t an issue.

 

[whitex]

Furthermore thousands of Model S & X owners have many months of experience with stalkless and there doesn’t seem to be a big issue.

Lookup S/X sales numbers since the yoke was forced on buyers. Then again, perhaps you don't consider tanking sales a big issue.

Most of the dissenters haven’t even tried them and given them a chance (one test drive isn’t enough) - they just know better than actual users…

I was willing to give it a longer test drive, but Tesla does not allow that. There was a period where they offered money back guarantee if you don't love the car in 7 days, but after the yoke was introduced Tesla got rid of it. Coincidence? So I did the allowed test drive, decided to switch brands of car after a decade of driving Model S'es. When my wife was looking for her third Tesla, she wanted a Model X since she loved her prior two Model S'es and the consistent user experience when getting a new car. One test drive in a Model X with the yoke and she switched brands too. If you are right, Tesla is missing a golden opportunity - bring back money back guarantee if you don't love the yoke, or perhaps give people extended test drives, or offer a retrofit to a round stalked wheel for anyone who buys a yoke and doesn't love it after a some period of time. How long do you think it takes to fall in love with the yoke driving?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Lookup S/X sales numbers since the yoke was forced on buyers. Then again, perhaps you don't consider tanking sales a big issue.

I was willing to give it a longer test drive, but Tesla does not allow that. There was a period where they offered money back guarantee if you don't love the car in 7 days, but after the yoke was introduced Tesla got rid of it.

The 7 day policy was cancelled in October 2020:
Tesla cancels its ballsy 'no questions asked' 7-day return policy
Plaid didn't start deliveries until June 10, 2021:
Watch the debut of Tesla Model S Plaid, the ‘quickest production car ever made’
So I doubt the yoke had anything to do with it. There were plenty of signs leading up the cancellation of the policy that it was unstainable, as people would return cars for any little thing.

Coincidence? So I did the allowed test drive, decided to switch brands of car after a decade of driving Model S'es. When my wife was looking for her third Tesla, she wanted a Model X since she loved her prior two Model S'es and the consistent user experience when getting a new car. One test drive in a Model X with the yoke and she switched brands too. If you are right, Tesla is missing a golden opportunity - bring back money back guarantee if you don't love the yoke, or perhaps give people extended test drives, or offer a retrofit to a round stalked wheel for anyone who buys a yoke and doesn't love it after a some period of time. How long do you think it takes to fall in love with the yoke driving?

 

[flai54]

A fair point that’s being overlooked? Maybe not turn signals yet, but more and more controls are moving to steering wheels from all carmakers - and drivers seem to be adapring easily. Furthermore thousands of Model S & X owners have many months of experience with stalkless and there doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Most of the dissenters haven’t even tried them and given them a chance (one test drive isn’t enough) - they just know better than actual users…

Admittedly turn signals on the wheel are an issue in roundabouts, a downside versus other upsides. To the poster who said it’s also a disadvantage for K-turns, get serious. Most of us rarely do K-turns, and you wouldn’t do it in traffic so signals aren’t an issue.

The thing is human nature loves consistency. So anytime something deviates from the norm, human's first reaction is to be outraged. Then when the thing is actually implemented and you can see it in person and able to test it out, then they realized that its not so bad.

I am sure most people who don't like Teslas is because one of the reasons is that it doesn't have that front dashboard display because they are soo used to it and cars within the last 50 years have always had a dashboard display. Then once someone test drives it and you are behind the wheel and looking straight, you realize that as much as they think the screen is very far from their peripheral vision, the reality is that they are able to see it just fine and don't need to be rotating their head just to look at their speedometer.

 

[Thalgar]

Teslabjørn shows well just how shitty European roundabouts are without a turn signal stalk:

His conclusion after two months: The fundamental ergonomics of this car are wrong.

 

[UncleCreepy]

Teslabjørn shows well just how shitty European roundabouts are without a turn signal stalk:

His conclusion after two months: The fundamental ergonomics of this car are wrong.

1. I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in a roundabout anyway, so that seems like a made up argument, much like the "EVs are crap if I can't go 1000 miles on one charge and recharge in less than a minute" nonsense,
2. Anyone who gets paid for each click has zero credibility.
3 (not related to the quoted post). Yes, consistency makes things easier. Yet, nobody complains that the hazard light switch is a different position in each car, charge ports (or filler cap) can be left or right, gear selector could be a stalk or on the centre console... I could go on and on how literally every car is different in one way or another.

With that said, I don't like the idea that this old dog will eventually have to learn a new trick, but that doesn't inherently make it a bad design choice. I'm not saying it's a good design choice either. As stated before, I'd prefer to get into a car without stalks and give it a try before condemning the whole idea without really knowing what I'm talking about.

 

[one2many]

If the navi was just a bit better, it could do turn signals
for you. I might like that feature, dont tell me the meters
to the correct turn, just put my blinker on. Oh and yes there
are GPS chips out in the market that can pinpoint your
position to a nats ass.

 

[Zilla91]

If the navi was just a bit better, it could do turn signals
for you. I might like that feature, dont tell me the meters
to the correct turn, just put my blinker on. Oh and yes there
are GPS chips out in the market that can pinpoint your
position to a nats ass.

How would that work if you've not set a destination on the sat nav?

 

[one2many]

How would that work if you've not set a destination on the sat nav?

We often use the navi around town, it keeps us out of traffic jams.
I just put in House of Beer and off we go. I guess in Austin you
could put in kick but music and it would take you 6th street.
Or in the UK, enter the pub name and off you go.
I guess if you have a partner on the side it might be a bad idea
to put that in a navi.

 

[Zilla91]

We often use the navi around town, it keeps us out of traffic jams.
I just put in House of Beer and off we go. I guess in Austin you
could put in kick but music and it would take you 6th street.
Or in the UK, enter the pub name and off you go.
I guess if you have a partner on the side it might be a bad idea
to put that in a navi.

Putting every destination, even one 5 minutes drive away, seems a bit... suboptimal

 

[father_of_6]

Putting every destination, even one 5 minutes drive away, seems a bit... suboptimal

True, plus there are times that the nav directions are a bit silly. In my neighborhood, it regularly suggests a left-right-left set of turns instead of just going to the end of the block and turning left.

Auto blinkers on nav would still be really cool. Still want stalks though.

 

[KJD]

A fair point that’s being overlooked? Maybe not turn signals yet, but more and more controls are moving to steering wheels from all carmakers - and drivers seem to be adapring easily. Furthermore thousands of Model S & X owners have many months of experience with stalkless and there doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Most of the dissenters haven’t even tried them and given them a chance (one test drive isn’t enough) - they just know better than actual users…

I would take issue with that. There are plenty of people who have bought the S or X with the stalkless design and want the old design back. Some of them have posted in the thread below. Others just complain to themselves and don't bother posting here.

Work in progress: stalks on 2021 Model S. (and optional round-y wheel)

 

[Tha_Ape]

No stalks were a deal breaker for me and part of the reason I bought my M3 a few months ago. (Well that and "1st year" models always have issues... rather have the final year of a design).

This obsession with saving costs by reducing equipment is getting a little out of hand. I got a 21 MY, one of the last ones with radar (which was eventually deactivated via SW), that's right about when they started removing stuff... center console data USBs, radar, passenger lumbar, CCS compatibility (it was added back months later), reduced the speaker count, got rid of USS...

Now they got rid of fog lights and steering wheel stalks. The fog lights aren't a big deal, but worth noting.

I'm not saying these will be my last Teslas, I'll decide on 5-10yrs when it's time for a new car, but the trajectory isn't looking good.

 

[RSpanner]

Buttons on the wheel instead of a stalk? For turn signals...yeah, ok. For engaging the car, having to touch a screen...a big No..at least for me.

 

[3sr+buyer]

1. I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in a roundabout anyway, so that seems like a made up argument,

I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in any circumstance, but those who use turn signals use them frequently (every turn or lane change, including when about to exit a roundabout). The gear selector is much less frequently used by drivers who do use turn signals.

 

[zoomer0056]

The gear selector is much less frequently used by drivers who do use turn signals.

What, was there a study done showing turn signalers shift gears less? Ha, I'm sure this isn't what was meant.

 

[3sr+buyer]

What, was there a study done showing turn signalers shift gears less? Ha, I'm sure this isn't what was meant.

That was not what was meant. Using the gear shift is less common than using the turn signal for drivers who do use turn signals.

 

[EfficientWatts]

1. I don't see a lot of people using their turn signals in a roundabout anyway, so that seems like a made up argument, much like the "EVs are crap if I can't go 1000 miles on one charge and recharge in less than a minute" nonsense,
2. Anyone who gets paid for each click has zero credibility.
3 (not related to the quoted post). Yes, consistency makes things easier. Yet, nobody complains that the hazard light switch is a different position in each car, charge ports (or filler cap) can be left or right, gear selector could be a stalk or on the centre console... I could go on and on how literally every car is different in one way or another.

With that said, I don't like the idea that this old dog will eventually have to learn a new trick, but that doesn't inherently make it a bad design choice. I'm not saying it's a good design choice either. As stated before, I'd prefer to get into a car without stalks and give it a try before condemning the whole idea without really knowing what I'm talking about.

1. it might not be that often, but when it's needed, not being able to hit it easily would be difficult given the position of your steering wheel. also depends on where you are, seems this would be a much bigger issue in europe.
2. this is a dumb argument because it speaks nothing to the substance of the issue and just goes attacks the youtuber. despite the filler nature of youtubing at times, especially if examples and videos of the situation are shown i would say that speaks pretty well vs some rando posting on the internet. (of course we are all such people, but video evidence i would say can speak more volumes, and should not be discounted just because of being paid per click; it should be considered especially if one has an agenda but should not mean "your argument is invalid")