Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[Knightshade]

Ok, I've been lurking and reading. I see egos being defended and ideas being stubbornly proposed. Let me add another. For Model 3 Highland, it most certainly is not quicker or safer to keep one hand on the wheel, eyes on both front and rear views AND your other hand over your head moving around as you try to hit the little D and R on the secondary gearshift to rock-n-roll your car. It's much much much better and less prone to mistakes by using the simple shoulder height screen swipe up and swipe down. Stalks .... meh ...

Here again I don't see how that makes physical sense.

With the buttons you can hold one finger above each D and R, and press finger 1 for D and finger 2 for R, back and forth...without having to move your hand at all. And you have the physical/tactile feedback of having pressed the button so you know you did it.

Whereas the screen you have to keep making sure your hand is in the right place as you swipe up and down and that the swipe took which you can only confirm by looking away to see.

Got it, you are just trolling for an argument. You weren't actually trying to understand my/our position.

I asked you to specifically explain your objection, to explain specifically how it's more dangerous- and I point out how your other objection doesn't actually hold up because neither method offers definitive "what gear am I in now" physical feedback... they only offer visual feedback- and both in the same way.

Obviously unable to actually explain yourself on the first point or describe why you disagree with the contradiction in your claims in the second-- both things where I clearly AM trying to understand your position- you instead call me a troll.

Quality discussion in here

 

[gtgarner]

I don't like the removal of the stalk.

The turn signal stalk is something I've been using on all cars for 40 years. 40 years of muscle memory. Now Tesla is changing it for their benefit. I always knew Tesla to look out for their customers. This is a first.

I know I will be reaching for the stalk on my stalkless Tesla because I still drive my wife's car and many other cars. I'm going to be reaching for the stalk and missing the turn signal for a while. Hopefully the people behind me won't yell at me too loudly.

 

[EfficientWatts]

The Tesla stores around here seem to have a good supply of S and X with yokes and stalkless system. There is a reason for that.

There's still a lot of variables in play with that where I don't think that can be used as a true indicator of stalkless acceptance given the nature and price of the car; we'll have to look at overseas sales of the highland model 3 to see what happens. It will be interesting to see if stalkless has a big negative impact (and this is only an if as I can't make a true prediction at this time), I hope a certain person will be able to accept the data and put it back instead of trying to blame it on someone else.

 

[KJD]

There's still a lot of variables in play with that where I don't think that can be used as a true indicator of stalkless acceptance given the nature and price of the car; we'll have to look at overseas sales of the highland model 3 to see what happens. It will be interesting to see if stalkless has a big negative impact (and this is only an if as I can't make a true prediction at this time), I hope a certain person will be able to accept the data and put it back instead of trying to blame it on someone else.

In the past before the yoke stalkless design blunder, Tesla would have no problem clearing out ALL of the inventory on the lot at the end of each quarter.

Now despite a recent 10,000 price cut the day right after quarter end and we still have a bunch of S and X still on the lot. The data is there my friend.

 

[gtgarner]

In the past before the yoke stalkless design blunder, Tesla would have no problem clearing out ALL of the inventory on the lot at the end of each quarter.

Now despite a recent 10,000 price cut the day right after quarter end and we still have a bunch of S and X still on the lot. The data is there my friend.

Cars on a lot does not indicate the inability to sell. Tesla needs to ALWAYS keep an inventory (30 to 90 days or so). As they increase their delivery amount the inventory needs to also increase.

There are tons of reasons to keep inventory. I mean, they planned for a month shutdown and needed inventory sitting there. So someone takes a picture of a high number of inventories during a shutdown. Really?

Why were deliveries higher than production this past quarter? Inventory (cars on the lot).

What lot are you referring to? Link?

 

[techzelle]

The yoke without variable steering ratio is a joke.
Everyone mocks the removal of the stalks.

The fact that such controversy even exists is a testament to their failure. Clearly, these are blunders made by engineers who overlooked human factors.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The yoke without variable steering ratio is a joke.
Everyone mocks the removal of the stalks.

The fact that such controversy even exists is a testament to their failure. Clearly, these are blunders made by engineers who overlooked human factors.

I don't think controversy necessarily means failure, just that it's a new thing people haven't gotten used to yet. When iPhone came out, there was tons of controversy and many articles about how phones without physical keypads make zero sense. Shortly after, most smartphones started dropping the keypad (even before the touchscreen tech have improved; many still used the inferior resistive touchscreens) and now you have a hard time even finding a phone still with a keypad.

There's lots of people buying aftermarket yokes, so demand isn't zero.

 

[Knightshade]

I don't think controversy necessarily means failure, just that it's a new thing people haven't gotten used to yet. When iPhone came out, there was tons of controversy and many articles about how phones without physical keypads make zero sense. Shortly after, most smartphones started dropping the keypad (even before the touchscreen tech have improved; many still used the inferior resistive touchscreens) and now you have a hard time even finding a phone still with a keypad.

Related story from late 2007-

This was about 9 months after Apple announced the original iphone, and about 4 months after it actually went on sale.

Just as then the loud noise you keep hearing in this thread is a paradigm shifting without a clutch.

 

[zoomer0056]

Here again I don't see how that makes physical sense.

With the buttons you can hold one finger above each D and R, and press finger 1 for D and finger 2 for R, back and forth...without having to move your hand at all. And you have the physical/tactile feedback of having pressed the button so you know you did it.

Whereas the screen you have to keep making sure your hand is in the right place as you swipe up and down and that the swipe took which you can only confirm by looking away to see.

Look at the Highland manual for a picture of the secondary gear selector above the rear view mirror.

To rock-n-roll while holding your hand above your head, maintaining constant pressure on the selector housing with index and pinky finger can be challenging for most users. That's gonna take some strength, finger splitting agility and concentration while not looking. Much easier to keep hand below shoulder height with easy swipe up or down. The screen selector is well inside peripheral view.

Regarding haptics, unless there is documentation supporting it, it's more reasonable to speculate based on current facts that there will not be haptics in the Highland's secondary gear selector. The Model S secondary gear selector does not have haptics. In a secondary system, in this cost cutting climate, it's unlikely $ will be spent on a system that is rarely used.

 

[freeAgent]

You mean how 0 people have demonstrated there's been even a single safety problem from this change

You didn't watch the Bjorn Nyland video, did you? He showed the safety issue and demonstrated why it's a problem very clearly.

 

[father_of_6]

Look at the Highland manual for a picture of the secondary gear selector above the rear view mirror.

So... now we're raising our hand above our head to change gears? That requires taking your eyes off the road, and *still* has a higher chance of error.

The older you get, the harder this will be to execute. Demographics of Tesla ownership - almost guaranteed to be an older crowd given the higher pricing.

Oops, I turned my hazard lights on by accident. Oops, while turning them off I threw the car in neutral.

This actually seems like a bad joke.

Clearly, these are blunders made by engineers who overlooked human factors.

I thought I'd read that multiple engineers warned Elon against the yoke and stalk removal, but it didn't matter... his mind was made up.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Look at the Highland manual for a picture of the secondary gear selector above the rear view mirror.
View attachment 979710
To rock-n-roll while holding your hand above your head, maintaining constant pressure on the selector housing with index and pinky finger can be challenging for most users. That's gonna take some strength, finger splitting agility and concentration while not looking. Much easier to keep hand below shoulder height with easy swipe up or down. The screen selector is well inside peripheral view.

Regarding haptics, unless there is documentation supporting it, it's more reasonable to speculate based on current facts that there will not be haptics in the Highland's secondary gear selector. The Model S secondary gear selector does not have haptics. In a secondary system, in this cost cutting climate, it's unlikely $ will be spent on a system that is rarely used.

The existing dome light housing is about 7.25 inches wide, so assuming that is the same size, the distance between the R and D button in that diagram is less than 3 inches. I don't have particularly large hands, but the span between my thumb and index finger can reach 6 inches, so 3 inches would be trivial. Even index and middle finger can be used if it's under 3 inches. There is no need for index or pinky.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So... now we're raising our hand above our head to change gears? That requires taking your eyes off the road, and *still* has a higher chance of error.

The older you get, the harder this will be to execute. Demographics of Tesla ownership - almost guaranteed to be an older crowd given the higher pricing.

Oops, I turned my hazard lights on by accident. Oops, while turning them off I threw the car in neutral.

This actually seems like a bad joke.



I thought I'd read that multiple engineers warned Elon against the yoke and stalk removal, but it didn't matter... his mind was made up.

The above is discussing the scenario of rocking the car, which is rarely done (never done for people in most climates). In daily driving you won't be using those buttons. It'll be a combination of the autoshift and the touchscreen gear change.

 

[LiamPope]

I don't think controversy necessarily means failure, just that it's a new thing people haven't gotten used to yet. When iPhone came out, there was tons of controversy and many articles about how phones without physical keypads make zero sense. Shortly after, most smartphones started dropping the keypad (even before the touchscreen tech have improved; many still used the inferior resistive touchscreens) and now you have a hard time even finding a phone still with a keypad.

There's lots of people buying aftermarket yokes, so demand isn't zero.

But touchscreen keypads were very easy to adapt to, requiring no fundamentally different operation than physical buttons, plus there were a tonne of user benefits along with it. Loosing stalks requires fundamentally different and less ergonomic operation, and there are no user benefit.

People buying aftermarket yokes still have stalks!

The fact they aren't even offering optional yokes on Highland probably says something about demand.

 

[Knightshade]

So... now we're raising our hand above our head to change gears? That requires taking your eyes off the road

You only change gears when the car is stopped- so again this is an imaginary "danger"

You can also use the screen too if you want to reach an inch or two less of course, the top buttons would just be a little faster/easier for rocking out of snow (and as the other poster points out, they're close enough together to do comfortably, and once your hand is in the right place you don't need to "look" up again if you don't move your hand- just push with one finger vs the other)

The older you get, the harder this will be to execute

Why?

Oops, I turned my hazard lights on by accident. Oops, while turning them off I threw the car in neutral.

None of that would happen unless you moved your fingers to different physical buttons for...some reason?

I thought I'd read that multiple engineers warned Elon against the yoke and stalk removal, but it didn't matter... his mind was made up.

<citation required>

You didn't watch the Bjorn Nyland video, did you? He showed the safety issue and demonstrated why it's a problem very clearly.

Do you mean this?

I saw it- there's no safety issue at all.

There's 2 problems here:

A) He's complaining he's still "looking" for a stalk- that's muscle memory, and you re-learn that when something changes... when I stopped driving a Toyota/Lexus it took weeks before I relearned how to turn on wipers or cruise because of 10+ years of memory.

B) He complains the button isn't in the right place for a turn-- but he ALREADY TURNED THE WHEEL into the turn before trying to press it. Correct driving you engage a turn signal BEFORE you turn-- in which case the button would be right where you expect by your thumb-- not at the bottom because he's sitting where with a 90-degree turned wheel.

Neither is a "safety" issue.

But if you can cite any actual accidents caused in the 2+ years of no stalks on S/X by the removal of stalks I'd be very interested to see that data.

 

[LiamPope]

You only change gears when the car is stopped- so again this is an imaginary "danger"

You can also use the screen too if you want to reach an inch or two less of course, the top buttons would just be a little faster/easier for rocking out of snow (and as the other poster points out, they're close enough together to do comfortably, and once your hand is in the right place you don't need to "look" up again if you don't move your hand- just push with one finger vs the other)




Why?




None of that would happen unless you moved your fingers to different physical buttons for...some reason?





<citation required>





Do you mean this?

I saw it- there's no safety issue at all.

There's 2 problems here:

A) He's complaining he's still "looking" for a stalk- that's muscle memory, and you re-learn that when something changes... when I stopped driving a Toyota/Lexus it took weeks before I relearned how to turn on wipers or cruise because of 10+ years of memory.

B) He complains the button isn't in the right place for a turn-- but he ALREADY TURNED THE WHEEL into the turn before trying to press it. Correct driving you engage a turn signal BEFORE you turn-- in which case the button would be right where you expect by your thumb-- not at the bottom because he's sitting where with a 90-degree turned wheel.

Neither is a "safety" issue.

But if you can cite any actual accidents caused in the 2+ years of no stalks on S/X by the removal of stalks I'd be very interested to see that data.

So, no stalks may not have caused traffic accidents, lack of data notwithstanding. Well that's some top level praise!! Where do I sign up to have my stalks removed? I need some of this awesomeness!!

Also, plenty of everyday correct driving in Europe where you need to activate a turn signal with the wheel turned at some arbitrary angle, essentially preventing muscle memory for it becoming a thing.

 

[father_of_6]

You only change gears when the car is stopped- so again this is an imaginary "danger"

I change gears all the time at 5mph or less. Not without stalks I wouldn't be.

 

[Zilla91]

You only change gears when the car is stopped

You're wrong, you can change gears when moving at low speed (such as a parking manoeuvre).

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Here again I don't see how that makes physical sense.

With the buttons you can hold one finger above each D and R, and press finger 1 for D and finger 2 for R, back and forth...without having to move your hand at all. And you have the physical/tactile feedback of having pressed the button so you know you did it.

Whereas the screen you have to keep making sure your hand is in the right place as you swipe up and down and that the swipe took which you can only confirm by looking away to see.





I asked you to specifically explain your objection, to explain specifically how it's more dangerous- and I point out how your other objection doesn't actually hold up because neither method offers definitive "what gear am I in now" physical feedback... they only offer visual feedback- and both in the same way.

Obviously unable to actually explain yourself on the first point or describe why you disagree with the contradiction in your claims in the second-- both things where I clearly AM trying to understand your position- you instead call me a troll.

Quality discussion in here

My Kona EV gives me very clear "What gear am I in" feedback via a very annoying reversing noise.

My view is that Tesla should use the old Boombox idea and allow you to set a reversing tune.

 

[zoomer0056]

So... now we're raising our hand above our head to change gears?

That is a secondary gear selector, not meant for everyday use. Just like the pull chords to open the rear doors in a Model S in the event of electric door button failure. You can't say "so now we're reaching to the floor between our legs to open the door?"