Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[Maki22]

To be fair, people still complain about the seat belts and many refuses to use them. There is even a marked for devices that tricks your car into thinking that the seat belt is on because there are so many that refuses to use a device that is the only thing that will save their lives in an accident.
Some of them use the argument that they have airbag so they don't need to use seat belt, ignoring the fact that the airbag will kill them without a seat belt.

For as long as there are humans, someone will always find something to complain about no matter what.

I love my stalkless Highland and it took very short time before I got fully used to it, but for some reason everyone thinks that I am lying and say that it is impossible to get used to it or that it is impossible to take a roundabout correctly (hint: it is fully possible).

 

[jboy210]

To be fair, people still complain about the seat belts and many refuses to use them. There is even a marked for devices that tricks your car into thinking that the seat belt is on because there are so many that refuses to use a device that is the only thing that will save their lives in an accident.
Some of them use the argument that they have airbag so they don't need to use seat belt, ignoring the fact that the airbag will kill them without a seat belt.

For as long as there are humans, someone will always find something to complain about no matter what.

I love my stalkless Highland and it took very short time before I got fully used to it, but for some reason everyone thinks that I am lying and say that it is impossible to get used to it or that it is impossible to take a roundabout correctly (hint: it is fully possible).

I was almost going to take my 2022 X back when it came with a Yoke and no stalks. But, decided to give it a try. Took me about a week to adjust.

The X driver side display it is much better with the yoke. Can't wait to try steer by wire and variable ratio steering!

 

[Midpack]

To be fair, people still complain about the seat belts and many refuses to use them. There is even a marked for devices that tricks your car into thinking that the seat belt is on because there are so many that refuses to use a device that is the only thing that will save their lives in an accident.
Some of them use the argument that they have airbag so they don't need to use seat belt, ignoring the fact that the airbag will kill them without a seat belt.

For as long as there are humans, someone will always find something to complain about no matter what.

I love my stalkless Highland and it took very short time before I got fully used to it, but for some reason everyone thinks that I am lying and say that it is impossible to get used to it or that it is impossible to take a roundabout correctly (hint: it is fully possible).

It's funny how often people who hate stalkless have never tried it - they just know better than Tesla and anyone else (the OP), and how rare it is to hear from a stalkless Tesla owner that hates it. Yokes yes there have been some owners who genuinely don't like it, stalkless very rarely IME...

[Of course the naysayers will dismiss this and say the stalkless owners just don't want to admit they don't like it. Some may, all? No way.]

 

[ph0ton]

It's called selection bias: those that took delivery of their stalk-less car are most receptive to it. It's not like we are getting an honest and fair sample of the driving population when we ask people that spent 50k+ on a car if stalkless driving was an issue.

 

[afadeev]

You will notice none of those pictures are taken from the actual drivers perspective, but rather lower, which proves the point.

Pics were taken off the web, obviously. Since that's way quicker and easier than taking pics of my actual cars.
Steering wheels are adjustable and telescoping (on decent cars), so same view can be accomplished by all drivers.

Visibility through the top of the steering wheel is simply not an issue on decent cars.
On Model 3 / Y / CT's, is a NON-issue by definition, since those lack a (very useful) instrument cluster present on "nicer" Teslas.

This all comes down to personal preferences.

Not really.
It comes down to human ergonomics.
Some things are universal:

• Distracting the driver is bad. For any reason.
• If a function requires taking eyes of the road to fumble with controls, it's an ergonomic design that can be improved.
• If a function requires taking hands off the steering wheel to fumble with controls, it's an ergonomic design that is inferior to the one that accommodates the same task with hands on the steering wheel.
• If a safety function (braking, steering) is dependent on OEM software working without bugs or not crashing, it's an unsafe design that should be improved. Or it will be recalled after the first few fatal accidents.

Above applies to all makes and models.

Who on this forum, a Tesla forum, where the future of cars is happening, is going to complain about progress?

Not everything Tesla does is progress. Some things definitely are. But not all.
Some things are full-on hair-brained dumb.
Yokes and stalkless controls are two obvious examples of that.

But why do you own a Tesla if you aren't open to trying new things?

That's an example of a false argument.
Owning Tesla has nothing to do with agreeing with all of its design and pricing choices.
I agree with things that are good.
I criticize the things that are dumb.

Lemmings do the former, but not the latter.

Back to the first group that probably also embraces FSD vs cruise control, is on board with min design/no stalks, on-demand Robotaxi, AI personal assistant, etc.

Another false choice.
Just because we like some things about Tesla, doesn't mean that we need to close the eyes on bad design choices (no stalks, j(y)oke), and obvious examples of Tesla deception: FSD that doesn't work 5+ years after launch, and false promises of Robotaxi's and Model 3's appreciating in value.

One has to be a very "special" individual to continue repeating the claims of "appreciating Robotaxi making owners money with FSD" line of Tesla BS.

a

 

[Maki22]

It's called selection bias: those that took delivery of their stalk-less car are most receptive to it. It's not like we are getting an honest and fair sample of the driving population when we ask people that spent 50k+ on a car if stalkless driving was an issue.

I would had returned the car within the return timeframe and gotten a legacy used Model 3 or different brand if I hadn't liked the stalkless design.

I bet you wouldn't call my feedback biased if I had said that the stalkless design is *sugar*. Am I correct?

What positive feedback would you not consider as biased? Some Youtuber that has driven the car for 1 hour? Some reviewer that have had the car for one day?

Is someone speaking positive about his/her iPhone or Samsung biased just because they own the item?

 

[ph0ton]

I would had returned the car within the return timeframe and gotten a legacy used Model 3 or different brand if I hadn't liked the stalkless design.

Yes, that's the contention. You can't use the feedback from the first adopters as an argument for a general population.

I bet you wouldn't call my feedback biased if I had said that the stalkless design is *sugar*. Am I correct?

I'm not calling your feedback biased, it's your take. I'm saying you can't use yours and others as representative for the general population.

What positive feedback would you not consider as biased? Some Youtuber that has driven the car for 1 hour? Some reviewer that have had the car for one day?

It's about a population, so I would say feedback of everyone coming through the Tesla website, or all pre-orders for the last couple of years. All of it has a bias. It's about how useful that feedback is. Yours isn't useful to infer about the general population, but it's useful to understand those who will tolerate ergonomic changes.

Is someone speaking positive about his/her iPhone or Samsung biased just because they own the item?

Oftentimes yes. There is brand loyalty to a fault, but it's about what you are using the feedback for. Again, it's about what kind of inferences you are making, not whether or not the biases exist.

 

[Tha_Ape]

It's called selection bias: those that took delivery of their stalk-less car are most receptive to it. It's not like we are getting an honest and fair sample of the driving population when we ask people that spent 50k+ on a car if stalkless driving was an issue.

Yea, theres a reason Tesla reintroduced the round steering wheel on the Model S, My guess is the yoke was hurting sales. No other reason to about-face on that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Pics were taken off the web, obviously. Since that's way quicker and easier than taking pics of my actual cars.
Steering wheels are adjustable and telescoping (on decent cars), so same view can be accomplished by all drivers.

You are still missing my point. Yes it can be adjusted to make it visible, but then you end up adjusting the steering wheel position to make the cluster visible, instead of adjusting it to the optimal position for ergonomics (ignoring the cluster). That's the problem that the yoke solves. Without the spoke in the way, you can tilt the wheel to the lowest position without ever worrying about the cluster being blocked, even if you are a taller driver.

I can't find it right now, but I remember watching a review recently that the reviewer pointed out this exact problem in a car. When the wheel is adjusted to make the cluster visible, the position made the reviewer feel like he was driving a bus (he prefers the plane of the wheel more vertical).

 

[techzelle]

Not to worry, some third party is going to come up with add-on stalks. Everyone is happy.

 

[Midpack]

Yea, theres a reason Tesla reintroduced the round steering wheel on the Model S, My guess is the yoke was hurting sales. No other reason to about-face on that.

Stalkless and yoke are two different things.

It is clear owners did not like the yoke, though if they had included drive by wire with speed variable turning ratio and a 360 lock to lock (vs 1080 or so), it might have been more accepted - we may see that with Cybertruck acceptance.

Stalkless is a different matter, and its not clear most owners don’t quickly learn to like it.

 

[kpanda17]

My five year M3, very satisfied owner buddy is making the jump to a highland
He is not an audiophile, just a satisfied long term Tesla owner
Even after five years, I am teaching him about Tesla features in his M3
As a very satisfied Tesla owner, he motivated us to consider and then go all in, 3x Ts

We will talk about the no stalks, make sure he takes a test drive, can try an S
Then we will talk after to be sure he also exposes the roundabout issue
I’ll report back on his change and status after
It will be interesting

 

[Videomatic3]

i got a 2023 model s as a loaner car when i took my car into service, it had a yoke and stalkless design, drove the thing about 600 miles that day on just about any kind of road i could drive on. the yoke is fine for freeway, but sucks on windy roads, and i tried very hard to use the turning signals. i shouldnt have to look at the steering wheel to use the turning signals. theres only a bump in the middle of the buttons. IMO this could be very much improved if there was a dimple or bump on the center of all the buttons on the steering wheel, or at least an outline of a button, and it would be better if it was actually a button to press not just a touch screen thing like the iphone 8 home button.
needless to say i used the wrong turning signals multiple times during my drive especially once it got dark and i couldnt see my fingers anymore.

im happy i didnt wait for the highland model 3.

 

[zoomer0056]

Stalkless is a different matter, and its not clear most owners don’t quickly learn to like it

Edit to remove double negative:
"Stalkless is a different matter, and it's clear that most owners quickly learn to like it."

 

[kpanda17]

Edit to remove double negative:
"Stalkless is a different matter, and it's clear that most owners quickly learn to like it."

For some it can be rhe fear of the unknown
My example will be interesting, a non auto aficionado and non techie getting the new M3 stalkless

Wait for it, I’ll be back with the info as deloveries are 30-60 days

 

[ChooseFreedom]

I agree
For those that did pick an EV, you are a forward thinker if done for the earth or tech shiny toys reasons
If you did it for gas or maintenance savings, maybe not the best ideas with gas prices in low $2 right now, some parts
Back to the first group that probably also embraces FSD vs cruise control, is on board with min design/no stalks, on-demand Robotaxi, AI personal assistant, etc
I agree, for I drove a MS with no stalks and realized, I did it and was no big deal (except roundabouts)

Exciting times

Sure, I've done some maintenance myself. Which I don't mind, I like to tinker. Some may not.
I happen to have FUSC, so my gas savings is a bonus, maybe a wash at the end of a year.
I just had to take her to the SC for the first time recently for a suspension knock I couldn't isolate myself. Tried the easy stuff, swapped the sway bar, no luck. Ended up being the upper control arm.
I've fixed a couple of door handles, replaced headlights myself. I did pay for the MCU2 upgrade, don't regret it.

I do think the timing of the stalk removal should've probably been held off to coincided with the steer-by-wire. It would eliminate hand crossovers, which would make people's transition to steering wheel located turn signals smoother I think.
The CT videos I've seen seem to show that to be true.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Not really.
It comes down to human ergonomics.
Some things are universal:

• Distracting the driver is bad. For any reason.
• If a function requires taking eyes of the road to fumble with controls, it's an ergonomic design that can be improved.
• If a function requires taking hands off the steering wheel to fumble with controls, it's an ergonomic design that is inferior to the one that accommodates the same task with hands on the steering wheel.
• If a safety function (braking, steering) is dependent on OEM software working without bugs or not crashing, it's an unsafe design that should be improved. Or it will be recalled after the first few fatal accidents.

Above applies to all makes and models.


Not everything Tesla does is progress. Some things definitely are. But not all.
Some things are full-on hair-brained dumb.
Yokes and stalkless controls are two obvious examples of that.


That's an example of a false argument.
Owning Tesla has nothing to do with agreeing with all of its design and pricing choices.
I agree with things that are good.
I criticize the things that are dumb.

Lemmings do the former, but not the latter.

Agree, distracting the driver is bad.

Yeah, I like my instrument cluster, and thought for quite a while that I wouldn't buy a 3/Y because of it. I think a basic HUD would be all that's needed, so at least the speed could be seen easily. But that's adding a pretty penny to design and supply a HUD in the dash. Aftermarket solutions have been made.

I think you'd agree, that when all of us were learning to drive for the first time, we had to learn where the stalks were located, and which ones did what.

Thought experiment: What if we took 2 groups of brand new drivers and did studies as to which ones learned, how to signal for instance. One group with stalks and one group with steering wheel buttons.
I'm guessing there wouldn't be much difference. Both would adapt and learn their particular way in about the same time and ability.
Then after several months, let's say we swapped them. I'd bet both groups would initially struggle and complain that their old way was better. It's all about your comfort level with change.

All of us have only ever known stalks. That doesn't automatically mean it's the only good way, or even the best way. It just means its the way we're most comfortable with.
When you're turning the steering wheel, from your hand's perspective, a stalk is technically a moving target. We have to learn when and where to extend our fingers to hit it. Otherwise, we're moving our hand, releasing our grip, to adjust our hand position to hit the stalk. Yeah, our other hand stays gripping the wheel, but if you want to get technical with ergonomics, one hand is weaker than two, even for a split second. (Example: F1 drivers- yoke w/every button on it)

Currently, I freely grant you, prior to steer-by-wire, there are a small percentage of situations that would require some hand coordination. But it can be learned just like learning to use stalks.
Once steer-by-wire is implemented in future models though, this is a non-issue, as you won't have hand crossover situations, so your thumb will always be close to the buttons. (Cybertruck videos show a full U-turn w/o removing hands from wheel.)

I fully admitted not everything Tesla does works.
For example, steer-by-wire will vastly improve the yoke's functionality. So I would say Tesla's mistake with the yoke was the timing and execution of implementation, and not the choice to use one at all. But the yoke itself is very much a personal preference. Many like it. Many don't. Hence, now optional. An example of Tesla learning from a mistake. And that's all we can really ask for in the end.

Buying a particular vehicle, no matter what vehicle it is, by basic principle, IS you agreeing to any and all design and price specifics for that particular vehicle. Otherwise, why would you buy it?
So, if a company makes another vehicle, and you don't agree with the design/price/build, whatever, don't buy it.
Sure, there is starting to be some gray area due to the effects of OTA software updates. But again, if that is a deal breaker, don't buy.

Again, not saying people can't have opinions, we all do. But we're on this forum because we all chose to literally buy into this.
If you want to share concerns/frustrations, and ask for/offer solutions to the group, please do.
But just complaining to be complaining does no good to anyone. It's spreading negativity, and the world has too much of that already.
Stay constructive.

 

[st_o_p]

The simple fact is blinkers not being on stalks will cost sales. That is 100%. Some people will be ok with it - or even love it (though I have trouble seeing how it's better). Some people will put up with it even though they hate it. And some people will simply NEVER buy that car - because of that. I am one of those - I own Model 3 but will not buy another one - because of the blinkers not being on stalks, and because of the lack of parking sensors. There are things I can put up with and others I simply won't.

 

[stopcrazypp]

i got a 2023 model s as a loaner car when i took my car into service, it had a yoke and stalkless design, drove the thing about 600 miles that day on just about any kind of road i could drive on. the yoke is fine for freeway, but sucks on windy roads, and i tried very hard to use the turning signals. i shouldnt have to look at the steering wheel to use the turning signals. theres only a bump in the middle of the buttons. IMO this could be very much improved if there was a dimple or bump on the center of all the buttons on the steering wheel, or at least an outline of a button, and it would be better if it was actually a button to press not just a touch screen thing like the iphone 8 home button.
needless to say i used the wrong turning signals multiple times during my drive especially once it got dark and i couldnt see my fingers anymore.

im happy i didnt wait for the highland model 3.

They changed this on the 3, they are now actual buttons, not just touch.

 

[whitex]

Problem: Need to lower cost of production.

You can solve that problem by removing airbags, removing seatbelts, making seats all hard ABS plastic benches, using crappy tires, lowering overall quality, etc, etc. Just because it reduced a cost of production, doesn't mean it's a good overall solution. If you're going to go absolute, no restrictions cost reduction as a goal only - shut down Tesla altogether, cost of production goes to $0, problem solved, but this time it's the investors rather than customers who feel it was the wrong solution to the cost of production problem.