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I don’t think the Starlink implementation is “point to acquire”, it’s direct to cell via LTE unlike Apple’s setup. So I suspect it will auto roam while still in your pocket, but I don’t have evidence that it will be that seamless.

Of course the aspiration is a seamless experience

Reality is that the major roadblock is not the protocol (noting that Starlink will almost certainly use a bespoke, lightweight NTN variant of 5g, not a ‘bone stock’ terrestrial protocol), it is the signal strength. You can count link margin in typical terrestrial scenarios in the tens of dB’s. D2D link margins are going to often be counted in the single digit dB’s (which is also more or less equivalent to the occlusion of your body).
 
Reality is that the major roadblock is not the protocol (noting that Starlink will almost certainly use a bespoke, lightweight NTN variant of 5g, not a ‘bone stock’ terrestrial protocol), it is the signal strength. You can count link margin in typical terrestrial scenarios in the tens of dB’s. D2D link margins are going to often be counted in the single digit dB’s (which is also more or less equivalent to the occlusion of your body).
Starlink has stated publicly that it is LTE (4G) only, not NR/5G, and will work with all existing LTE handsets, so it's not anything special. (Something special going on up on the Satellite though, one would assume, to get a technology designed for 30km to work over 550km plus whatever slant angle - e.g. what size spot beams are in use?).

I have no idea what Apple is using, but it is hardware dependant, so perhaps a specific antenna, or even directional phased array antenna array is built into the iPhone 14/15 and associated modem.

I take your point about the occlusion of the body for weak signals - Starlink has also stated the clear sky requirement, so presumably the body will occlude a signal if a tree will. But the body tends to move around, so if it keeps trying, a text message should get through before too long one would hope.

It's good to have some competition though. In Canada, Rogers is teaming up with Lynk as well as Starlink (and have tested with Lynk already), meanwhile in the USA AT&T has bet on AST SpaceMobile - as may Telstra according to a rumour. I don't think AST has a satellite up there yet, but they have funding. Optus has already signed with Starlink, which might just make me move from Telstra after 20 years when it goes live. It's supposed to go beta late this year in US, and Optus have also said late 2024 on their website, but so far Starlink only have about 30-odd satellites launched.

So it's hard to see where Apple fits in - whether Apple will attempt to compete in this market or just offer their own complementary service. All the other DTC satellite providers are teaming up with terrestrial MNO's because they are using the same licensed spectrum. On the other hand, Apple is doing its own thing with who-knows which commercial satellite provider over who-knows what technology.

All have been silent about costs... whether a monthly opt-in cost or a pay-per-message - and it may change over time. I recall when SMS first came to Australia Telstra took great delight in charging $0.30 per message...
 
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Starlink has stated publicly that it is LTE (4G) only, not NR/5G, and will work with all existing LTE handsets, so it's not anything special. (Something special going on up on the Satellite though, one would assume, to get a technology designed for 30km to work over 550km plus whatever slant angle).
The SW stack on the phone probably needs a little tweaking due to the transit time. (Unless multi hundered km distant towers were already built into the protocol). Satellites need to handle the Dopler shift correction in both directions.

I take your point about the occlusion of the body for weak signals - Starlink has also stated the clear sky requirement, so presumably the body will occlude a signal if a tree will. But the body tends to move around, so if it keeps trying, a text message should get through before too long one would hope.
The satellites themselves are also quickly moving which allows for better links opportunities.
 
Starlink has stated publicly that it is LTE (4G) only, not NR/5G, and will work with all existing LTE handsets, so it's not anything special.

Time will tell, but I'm not so sure. Starlnk D2D is of course going to require a device OS update, but I'd also bet its going to have a dedicated "satellite mode", and I'd also bet that the production service its going to require 5G enabled devices. (As with every new technology, it's pretty hard to actually justify significant backward compatibility.)

I have no idea what Apple is using, but it is hardware dependant, so perhaps a specific antenna, or even directional phased array antenna array is built into the iPhone 14/15 and associated modem.

Apple is using Globalstar's satellite network and corollary user frequencies which are no secret: L-band and S-band. (FWIW Iridium is right next to Globlastar in L-band). There's no evidence of special antennas based on teardowns, and that checks out logically anyway--mobile phones all have a set of pretty wideband antennas that already work with lower frequencies (mobile down to hundreds of MHz) and higher frequencies (wifi, bluetooth, etc.). It's possible Apple tuned amplifiers and such for the specific frequencies they're using here, but that would just be an efficiency thing, not some material architecture change.

It's really a very efficient present day solution to the problem. No crazy upgrades to the phone, operates on approved space mobile spectrum, Apple-ized protocol that's way more efficient than terrestrial protocols (they say something like 1/3 the bits).

SX's abstract "its just a cell tower in the sky" using authorized terrestrial mobile frequencies from space is aspirationally elegant, but its going to require a lot of head-banging to bring to bear and it is most certainly going to fall short of corollary expectations for many. It will be slow to roll out and not at all frictionless to use.

It's good to have some competition though. In Canada, Rogers is teaming up with Lynk as well as Starlink (and have tested with Lynk already), meanwhile in the USA AT&T has bet on AST SpaceMobile - as may Telstra according to a rumour. I don't think AST has a satellite up there yet, but they have funding. Optus has already signed with Starlink, which might just make me move from Telstra after 20 years when it goes live. It's supposed to go beta late this year in US, and Optus have also said late 2024 on their website, but so far Starlink only have about 30-odd satellites launched.

FWIW, I don't see AST (or any others beyond SX) as being long term viable. The financial commitment to those entities from various global MNOs is a fraction of what's needed to actually build out infrastructure. ATT giving AST some token love, for instance, is really just ATT hedging their bets that somebody is going to emerge the winner, and they might as well get some PR in the meantime (see: the Ben Stiller commercial). Hell, ATT is probably spinning the investment as a development write-off too...

(Also FWIW, AST does have a small demo sat on orbit).

So it's hard to see where Apple fits in

I think the thought experiment is valuable in the other direction as well. Where does SX D2D actually fit in? For D2D, SX is internally footing the infrastructure bill which is of course the same as they did with Starlink. The difference is that with Starlink there was a known customer/revenue base. Starlink was always going to be fundamentally successful, because the business model was already proven successful. All Starlink had to do was offer better service at similar or lower prices and then wait for their investment to come good. (SX is looking to grow into the unknown--beyond that expected success--but that's another conversation...)

For D2D there's no proven business model; there's no obvious future where the end users and the MNOs shell out enough money so the MNOs and SX are financially satisfied year over year. (The only business models we have have are all less than succesful--Iridium, Globalstar, Terrestar, ICO...). Not to mention that uncertainly is even before one factors in the "users are getting satellite connectivity already with their iPhones" aspect. What Apple's service really means to SX is that SX D2D revenue is going to come from 1) non-iphone users and 2) [all] mobile users willing to pay for a premium experience.

1) is pretty much SX's whole bet here. They successfully killed snapdragon, and SX is hoping that phone makers don't get [back] into a keeping up with the Joneses arms race [with Apple] like we see every year with camera resolutions and display sizes and such. SX is hoping those phone manufacturers make it a MNO problem to solve, and then are hoping that there are enough MNOs around the world to pay SX enough scrilla between a) whatever incremental upcharge those MNO's can broad brush on their subscription packages and b) whatever recurring monies those MNOs are willing to eat as a function of their own The Joneses. (If TM goes live, for instance, of course Verizon is going to pay up to also go live regardless if it's coming out of their pocket or their customer's pockets). This is all a tough spot for the Samsungs, etc, of the world, because if SX D2D doesn't come good, they're all way behind Apple...but...Not SX's problem...

For 2), D2D premium service is going to be largely a marketing exercise, similar to how auto manufacturers attract customers with their high line products but their quarterlies are mostly a function of downmarket quantities. (SX D2D will NOT be the inverse of that, like we see in the airline industry, where significant revenue and margin comes from premium products). Of course there will be a small number of folks that will pay for (and love) that premium service, but for SX it will be analogous to what the X and S bring to Tesla. There simply aren't enough people out there that are willing to pay for what will mostly be a very infrequent use case for premium service to be a material revenue generator.

Another interesting twist here is that D2D demand is necessarily stunted by virtue of the fact that the MNO's are going to get very useful data on where their user base is off grid and what level of service they're using. It will be a pretty rudimentary cost benefit analysis whether or not to drop a tower in that place that's getting a lot of satellite traffic, and that new tower incrementally reduces overall demand for the satellite service in the first place.

Apple OTOH doesn't need to 'follow the money' the way SX + MNOs must do for SX D2D. Apple really is just doing business as usual. As a matter of time moving on Apple (like everyone) keeps improving the technology within their products. They're not looking to explicitly recover cost of the satellite services from the user just as they're not recovering the cost of that three-axis camera or whatever else gets added to the iphone year over year. Hero iPhones are still $1000 as they have been forever, and Dear Tim letters make for excellent PR.

After all that, its worth noting that, much like Teslas and 3rd party charging infrastructure, Apple's in a position to win here regardless the future. If SX D2D falters, Apple is the clear leader in the D2D space and iPhone users win. If SX D2D takes off with MNOs and obsoletes Apple's service...iPhone users win.
 
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Lots of positive reviews coming in for Apple's satellite texting.
I Saw the iPhone's Most Underrated iOS 18 Feature. We Should Be Talking About It More

Also, it turns out anyone can download the beta version of ios18 by signing up (for free) as a developer.

Related to the above conversation about "follow the money", it's interesting to contemplate developments on Starlink mobile relative to D2D. One could surmise that someone willing to pay for a hypothetical SX premium D2D service would seriously consider paying [more] for proper connectivity instead, especially if their phone already provides basic satellite connectivity.
 
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Which satellites iPhone with iOS 18 is connecting to?

Apple's been publicly using Globlastar's satellite network for the better part of two years now...or at least it's been public knowledge. (See post #1 in this thread...)

Who has a satellite constellation as good as Starlink ?

Given that--at least as of today--Starlink cannot connect to mobile phones in a production environment, your question is a bit of divide-by-zero. Starlink only has 30-something (60-something?) D2D satellites on orbit, and they're in a testing environment.

Given starlink D2D orbital geometry (altitude and inclination), SX will need give or take 300 D2D sats to have full-ish global coverage with no gaps.
 
Which I would guess, SpaceX can launch and get it operational in the blink of an eye (in space launch timelines).

Certainly building and launching the sats is not the long pole…with the asterisk that a D2D launch necessarily impacts the Starlink launch cycle (which we know they pretty much need to maintain in perpetuity). Likely no practical impact to Starlink, but worth noting.

The long poles for SX D2D are:
1. Getting the custom protocol and UI to work.
2. Getting regulatory approval to use the spectrum.
3. Closing the business model for all parties.
 
Certainly building and launching the sats is not the long pole…with the asterisk that a D2D launch necessarily impacts the Starlink launch cycle (which we know they pretty much need to maintain in perpetuity). Likely no practical impact to Starlink, but worth noting.

The long poles for SX D2D are:
1. Getting the custom protocol and UI to work.
2. Getting regulatory approval to use the spectrum.
3. Closing the business model for all parties.
I thought those were already accomplished?
(What custom UI???)
 
Lots of positive reviews coming in for Apple's satellite texting.
I Saw the iPhone's Most Underrated iOS 18 Feature. We Should Be Talking About It More

Also, it turns out anyone can download the beta version of ios18 by signing up (for free) as a developer.

Related to the above conversation about "follow the money", it's interesting to contemplate developments on Starlink mobile relative to D2D. One could surmise that someone willing to pay for a hypothetical SX premium D2D service would seriously consider paying [more] for proper connectivity instead, especially if their phone already provides basic satellite connectivity.
Does the iOS 18 beta have RCS suppprt?
 
I thought those were already accomplished?
It looks like the FCC put the rules in place as of May 30, but I can't find anything that says SpaceX has such a license yet - which isn't too surprising after only two weeks.


Lots and lots of requirements and specifications.
 
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Lots of positive reviews coming in for Apple's satellite texting.
I Saw the iPhone's Most Underrated iOS 18 Feature. We Should Be Talking About It More

Also, it turns out anyone can download the beta version of ios18 by signing up (for free) as a developer.

Related to the above conversation about "follow the money", it's interesting to contemplate developments on Starlink mobile relative to D2D. One could surmise that someone willing to pay for a hypothetical SX premium D2D service would seriously consider paying [more] for proper connectivity instead, especially if their phone already provides basic satellite connectivity.

"Proper connectivity" as in full internet connectivity as opposed to just texting? Or full voice?
 
"Proper connectivity" as in full internet connectivity as opposed to just texting? Or full voice?

Starlink mobile will be proper/full/normal connectivity. Your home office anywhere, as it were.

Starlink D2D, even at its most aspirational state of performance, will be something less than above. Generally much slower speeds, congestion, tethering limits (or no tethering), constant knowledge of occlusions, lower data caps, etc…

My take on human nature is that if one already has basic connectivity (emergency and messaging) through some low/no dollar Starlink D2D or Apple service, the middle tier of ‘premium Starlink D2D’—at a likely tens of $/month—becomes much less attractive.

It’s possible premium d2d will be a $10/day type of la carte (like hotels and planes) and that will result in a higher take, though there’s still the human nature element of ‘I already have basic and that’s fine for my day hiking off grid’.
 
Starlink mobile will be proper/full/normal connectivity. Your home office anywhere, as it were.

Starlink D2D, even at its most aspirational state of performance, will be something less than above. Generally much slower speeds, congestion, tethering limits (or no tethering), constant knowledge of occlusions, lower data caps, etc…

My take on human nature is that if one already has basic connectivity (emergency and messaging) through some low/no dollar Starlink D2D or Apple service, the middle tier of ‘premium Starlink D2D’—at a likely tens of $/month—becomes much less attractive.

It’s possible premium d2d will be a $10/day type of la carte (like hotels and planes) and that will result in a higher take, though there’s still the human nature element of ‘I already have basic and that’s fine for my day hiking off grid’.

Gotcha, and yeah, I agree it's a tougher upsell.

Is Starlink D2D intended to provide a "full" experience, i.e. - high(ish) speed data along with voice/text?
 
Gotcha, and yeah, I agree it's a tougher upsell.

It really is the most uncertain part. The other stuff can all be resolved with time. Human nature OTOH…especially when it comes to money…

Is Starlink D2D intended to provide a "full" experience, i.e. - high(ish) speed data along with voice/text?

Yes. Link quality (occlusions) and data caps not withstanding, SX D2D has the ability to be full, unrestricted access. Probably something on the order of a 3G experience.
 
It really is the most uncertain part. The other stuff can all be resolved with time. Human nature OTOH…especially when it comes to money…



Yes. Link quality (occlusions) and data caps not withstanding, SX D2D has the ability to be full, unrestricted access. Probably something on the order of a 3G experience.
The fact that's possible in that form factor continues to amaze me...