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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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I wish all manufacturers were required to publish their rear wheel HP and the graphs that show the RPM range to achieve the output. This is good news and I am glad they are being transparent about the battery limitation. Once new battery tech arrives, we can get closer to the power output that the car was designed to handle.
 
I wish all manufacturers were required to publish their rear wheel HP and the graphs that show the RPM range to achieve the output. This is good news and I am glad they are being transparent about the battery limitation. Once new battery tech arrives, we can get closer to the power output that the car was designed to handle.

Just to clear some possible misunderstanding. Tesla didn't publish their wheel hp. They published shaft hp.
 
I wish all manufacturers were required to publish their rear wheel HP and the graphs that show the RPM range to achieve the output. This is good news and I am glad they are being transparent about the battery limitation. Once new battery tech arrives, we can get closer to the power output that the car was designed to handle.
You raise an interesting point. If there is a retrofittable 110 or 120 pack a couple years down the road, I could see getting it for the improved range. If it also had higher power output beyond the 90 pack and wasn't otherwise limited by the alternator, etc., then that would really be something to look forward to.
 
Good Point Matias, wonder what the drivetrain losses are compared to an ICE? I suspect it is <4% on a Tesla and >15% on an ICE vehicle.

The funny part is it doesn't matter - no one beats me off the line in either car after a almost 2.5 years of ownership. An Infiniti Q50S Hybrid driver who lives in my neighborhood has tried on multiple occasions and after bouncing the tac every time - he still sees the tail end of the Big T in front of him every time.

It fun listening to him banging the hell out of his valves and destroying the tranny trying to keep up - I definitely wouldn't want to buy his car used.
 
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I'm glad to see some now recognizing this "Battery limited maximum motor shaft power", as being somewhat analogous or "similar" to what would be referred to as RWHP in the ICE world.

Actually, and I'm going to throw this out there too. How many are familiar with the Dynapack dynamometers? The one where the wheels are removed and the car attached to the dyno using the hubs?

Chassis Dynamometer - Dynamometers | Dynapack (International Dynamometers Ltd)

Chassis Dyno Testing - Hot Rod Magazine

Essentially what is being measured is power and torque but with the wheels off or at the hubs.
 
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I agree it IS misleading to say it's a 762 HP car. But I also think it's misleading to say it is -- to say it delivers the performance of -- just a 463 HP car.

Consider a 762 HP engine which produces 713 lb-ft of torque and has an ideal dead flat torque curve. That engine will actually output 762 HP when it reaches 5252*HP/Torque = 5252*762/713 = 5612 RPM. At lower RPM it outputs less than 762HP, even wide open: for example, only 136 HP at 1000 RPM as the car begins to accelerate. Tesla's motors behave just like that engine until they hit 3409 RPM, which is 29 MPH. At that RPM they produce 463 HP, and above that they are battery limited.

Yes, the argument on the other side is that the motors are also behaving like a 463 HP engine that would produce full power at a more normal 5000 or 6000 RPM with lower torque, but where the car has very short gearing that could lay that full amount of power down on the road at 29MPH. In that case the car would need a large number of quick-shifting gears or a CVT to keep RPMs in the power band as the car accelerated from 29 MPH to much higher speeds. That would be an unusual set-up. My point is that subjectively off the line, the P85D behaves like a 762 HP car with more conventional gearing. After all, at 463 HP the car is dragging around 11 lbs per horsepower. What 11 lb/HP ICE car has such world-beating performance off the line that it can make unwary passengers scream? I think none. Hence my comment that it is ALSO misleading to classify it as merely a 463 HP car.

I should add there is also evidence (see my long write-up) that driveline losses from motor to tires are very low compared to ICE cars with transmissions. So in terms of max HP actually delivered to the pavement, it may be 10 - 15% higher than what a 463 HP ICE car could deliver.

I don't want to sound like an apologist or a fanboy -- and I'm upset at the company for changing the specs on the P85D ludicrous upgrade just after I put down my 500 bucks -- but on the other hand, I really love the feeling of kicking the pedal from a standstill.

It delivers exactly the performance of a 463hp car WITH exceptional low speed torque, AWD, and exceptional traction control. All of which is GREAT ... and superior to any other 463hp car I can think of below 30mph. That is NOT however, how they represented it. Their representation (comparisons to supercars and claiming 691/762 hp) suggested MUCH better performance above 30mph than delivered.

If the driveline losses are a few percent lower, that's fine too, but its almost immaterial vis a vis the >200 hp gap we have at hand.
 
No its not so much. I have had 50-60 Subaru sti and Mitsubishi Evos on the dyno and the loss is not far from 18% on them. If its a old automatic transmission the drivetrain loss can be as much as 25-30%.

As someone who specializes in tuning Subarus, Mitsubishis, and Mazdaspeeds I can assure you that I've never experienced this on a properly dialed in dyno. Don't take my word for it though.

Drivetrain Loss: Horsepower Losses Through FWD, RWD and AWD Drivetrains - AudiWorld Forums

That said, obviously some AWD systems are more efficient than others (such as Audis system) but I've never less than than a 20% drivetrain loss on a WRX or EVO.
 
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As someone who specializes in tuning Subarus, Mitsubishis, and Mazdaspeeds I can assure you that your figures are off. Don't take my word for it though. How abut other Evo owners?

power loss ratio for AWD - evolutionm.net
I do tuning of subaru and Mitsubishi ;) The stock ones I have had on the dyno have a drivetrainloss around 18% from the engine to the hubs if the stock engine hp figures are correct. Its also different from dyno to dyno. I use a Dynopack that measure the power on the hubs and not the wheels, so it may be a few more % loss on the wheels.

Example a stock Subaru sti 2003 that has 265 hp stock dyno 219 hp at the hubs on the dynopack i use.
 
I do tuning of subaru and Mitsubishi ;) The stock ones I have had on the dyno have a drivetrainloss around 18% from the engine to the hubs if the stock engine hp figures are correct. Its also different from dyno to dyno. I use a Dynopack that measure the power on the hubs and not the wheels, so it may be a few more % loss on the wheels.

Example a stock Subaru sti 2003 that has 265 hp stock dyno 219 hp at the hubs on the dynopack i use.

Indeed I see what happened there. There is a significant difference between power measured at the wheels and that measured at the hubs. For WHP 15% is what I'd expect to see from a RWD vehicle.
 
I'm glad to see some now recognizing this "Battery limited maximum motor shaft power", as being somewhat analogous or "similar" to what would be referred to as RWHP in the ICE world.

Actually, and I'm going to throw this out there too. How many are familiar with the Dynapack dynamometers? The one where the wheels are removed and the car attached to the dyno using the hubs?

Chassis Dynamometer - Dynamometers | Dynapack (International Dynamometers Ltd)

Chassis Dyno Testing - Hot Rod Magazine

Essentially what is being measured is power and torque but with the wheels off.

No no and no, that is not the same. I had mine on a dyno, and it showed 430 hp and people were saying 'no-way, you did it wrong bla bla bla'

Well 430 hp on the wheels looks quite realistic with the 463 hp battery limit

And would have been foolhardy, especially when he didn't have to.

Their using "motor power" to describe an EV was not unprecedented.

It seams that Tesla earlier used to list the battery limited power, i.e. P85 417hp and then changed that when it suited their need ...


Especially since they keep getting revised upward with either no real HW change or just a FW update.

Fantacy numbers all the way. We need a +130 kWh battery to get our 691 hp and even more to reach the new numbers.