Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[wk057]

No one is calling people 'trolls' or 'you attackers' for disagreeing with your opinion. How 'bout stopping using words that deliberately inflame? As soon as I see stuff like this in a post, I pretty much tune the rest of it out.

Now the list of derogatory words describing someone or a group of someones on a forum includes the word "defenders"? Come on... 'Troll' I can understand. 'Fanboy'... eh, maybe, depends on context. Defender is in no way derogatory or inflammatory It accurately describes the actions of people defending Tesla's position on this topic. They are defending it, and thus are defenders. If the people that are defending Tesla's position on this topic are not willing to be described as defenders... then they either need to take an English course, or stop defending.

If people want to say I'm on the attacking side of this issue, that's perfectly fine as well.

 

[Krugerrand]

Give it a rest, that is not the buyers responsibility to interpret that, but Teslas responsibility to present comparable and truthful information. For all I know they do and there may be some other reason for the slower 0-60 mph. What do I know, and what do I care? I'm buying the P85D.

No, actually it's your responsibility to educate yourself and make sure you're spending your money on what you really want to have/need. It's like that all over the world, no matter what you're buying. Buyer beware. It's particularly important when you've entered new territory. Just as you would be very foolish to buy a horse if you had no or little equine background, it's equally foolish to buy a car based primarily (as is being claimed by some) on a horsepower number without understanding where that number came from and how it equates to real world performance.

I understand that some owners upgraded/bought the P85D sight unseen/untested based on the words and interpretation of the CEO. That's on them. Just as comprehension and interpretation is often a struggle when reading forum member's posts, that same struggle exists when people speak and other's listen. I think some got caught up in the excitement of it all and wanting to have the most recent, best version of the Model S.

It's always easier to blame the other guy then to take personal responsibility for one's own actions. While Tesla could have taken steps to try and educate the general public better about this motor power stuff et al, they didn't do anything with nefarious intent, and in the end it's your responsibility that you spend your money on something you really want/need.

 

[P85DEE]

Well - this is exactly what I mean. Poster defending Tesla in this thread are all fine with Tesla having deliberately removed important information, having potential buyers speculate on what it may or may not mean when Tesla is claiming the one or other thing, instead of Tesla just stating things clear and precise with the knowledge and data they have.

Well they did. They stated "horsepower motor power".

If someone elected to "speculate" as to what that meant, well then that's on the person doing the speculating as opposed to the actual due diligence to find out what that meant.

Like the guy above me says, you wouldn't buy a horse if you didn't know a thing about horses without doing your due diligence on horses. It would make even less sense to buy a "performance horse", or a race horse without knowing a thing about horses, and even less if you didn't know a thing about the horse you were about to drop your cash on.

So your defense this time is, that I or any other buyer should have known from the 60D vs 85D hp data that the numbers of the P85D was not to be trusted.

My point is that from the information that you provided, had you or anyone else done a thorough perusal of it, then there is no way to arrive at the conclusion that this involves a simple addition of the horsepower numbers.

Any dispute of the above, is an admission that the 60D and 85D have the same horsepower.

At this point I would like to introduce the 0-60 times, which by your analogy, it should be clear that the P85D is without roll out, since both the 60D and 85D is without roll out. Please tell me where a average buyer would have found the clues to the P85D was with roll out?

Where did I say that one should be able to distinguish a 0-60 time with or without rollout???

But is Tesla obligated by rule of law to tell us whether or not a 0-60 time is with or without rollout??

The reason why I ask, is because a large number of American performance vehicles are indeed listed with 0-60 times which include rollout, and at least one manufacturer, namely GM/Chevrolet, apparently lists one of it's non performance versions of the Camaro, without rollout while listing the top dog Camaro 0-60 times with rollout.

Again, had Tesla stayed true to their ways of presenting data, all the information had been available for the buyers, TMC many threads lighter, and you all did not have to dig out examples you think I and others should have interpreted in some specific way, although Tesla in no way or form did anything to explain what they meant, even though Tesla meant that precise information previously was important to potential buyers.

Well then to that part in bold above, why didn't you run, not walk, RUN away from buying one of their cars in the first place.

It seems that you are doing all of your "research" and drawing all of your "conclusions" after the fact.

That's like locking the barn after the horse is gone.

Where was all of this insight before you wrote your check?

 

[Krugerrand]

Now the list of derogatory words describing someone or a group of someones on a forum includes the word "defenders"? Come on... 'Troll' I can understand. 'Fanboy'... eh, maybe, depends on context. Defender is in no way derogatory or inflammatory It accurately describes the actions of people defending Tesla's position on this topic. They are defending it, and thus are defenders. If the people that are defending Tesla's position on this topic are not willing to be described as defenders... then they either need to take an English course, or stop defending.

If people want to say I'm on the attacking side of this issue, that's perfectly fine as well.

It's not the word 'defenders' it's the 'you defenders' and the intent behind it, which was inflammatory. Posts can be written just as easily without the provocative content and still get points across. It does not matter that you personally see nothing wrong with it, others do, and it's respectful to consider others. And particularly on a subject that's already got people shooting first and asking questions later.

 

[P85DEE]

Give it a rest, that is not the buyers responsibility to interpret that, but Teslas responsibility to present comparable and truthful information.

If you do not wish to answer that, then I can understand why.

It goes to the point that from the information you posted previously, they both have the same stated 376 "horsepower motor power", so they must have the same 422 "horsepower", right?


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...This is an excellent point. If Tesla set out to intentionally mislead people with the horsepower motor power issue then this was a poor attempt at that. To list two cars with the exact same amount of horsepower and the only difference being the battery size but different 0-60 times would give away their attempt to hide the trick of using the term "horsepower motor power".

Exactly. And a big thanks to him for providing me with the information to make it.

And yes, I can understand how he would not want to answer that question.

 

[bonnie]

Now the list of derogatory words describing someone or a group of someones on a forum includes the word "defenders"? Come on... 'Troll' I can understand. 'Fanboy'... eh, maybe, depends on context. Defender is in no way derogatory or inflammatory It accurately describes the actions of people defending Tesla's position on this topic. They are defending it, and thus are defenders. If the people that are defending Tesla's position on this topic are not willing to be described as defenders... then they either need to take an English course, or stop defending.

If people want to say I'm on the attacking side of this issue, that's perfectly fine as well.

It's the label, wk. 'You defenders of Tesla' implies that Tesla is defended at all costs, regardless of 'the truth'. I'm probably sensitive - getting tired of labels. Overly tired. But I like to believe that what people post here is based on what they believe. Not based on a need to 'defend Tesla'.

Sure, we can play semantics, but I'm sure you get my point.

It would be equally bothersome to see 'You attackers of Tesla', because that would imply (imo) that by disagreeing with how Tesla did things, it was an attack on the company.

Language matters. And if the goal is civil discussion, the people should pay attention to words that are subtly inflammatory.

 

[rns-e]

No, actually it's your responsibility to educate yourself and make sure you're spending your money on what you really want to have/need. It's like that all over the world, no matter what you're buying. Buyer beware. It's particularly important when you've entered new territory. Just as you would be very foolish to buy a horse if you had no or little equine background, it's equally foolish to buy a car based primarily (as is being claimed by some) on a horsepower number without understanding where that number came from and how it equates to real world performance.

I understand that some owners upgraded/bought the P85D sight unseen/untested based on the words and interpretation of the CEO. That's on them. Just as comprehension and interpretation is often a struggle when reading forum member's posts, that same struggle exists when people speak and other's listen. I think some got caught up in the excitement of it all and wanting to have the most recent, best version of the Model S.

It's always easier to blame the other guy then to take personal responsibility for one's own actions. While Tesla could have taken steps to try and educate the general public better about this motor power stuff et al, they didn't do anything with nefarious intent, and in the end it's your responsibility that you spend your money on something you really want/need.

I would agree to the this if Tesla made the information available so buyers could educate them selfs or even answered the question when buyers or owners asked for the information. Tesla didn't. So then it becomes tricking buyers into buying or the smarter outsmarting the less smarter (or how you say it)

And for that there is consumer protective laws

 

[darthy001]

No, actually it's your responsibility to educate yourself and make sure you're spending your money on what you really want to have/need. It's like that all over the world, no matter what you're buying.

No its not. Here in scandinavia the seller/Tesla is expected to provide understandable advertising that doesnt hide or skew important facts. Introducing roll-out and new ways of showing horsepower etc etc like this is clearly questionable here.

There is a very clear reason the Norwegian consumer council is indeed handling this case on behalf of the norwegian owners at the moment. They would not have done so if Tesla had adhered to normal advertising practices here. And they do this using governmental funding. This is not paid for by P85D-owners....

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I would agree to the this if Tesla made the information available so buyers could educate them selfs or even answered the question when buyers or owners asked for the information. Tesla didn't. So then it becomes tricking buyers into buying or the smarter outsmarting the less smarter (or how you say it)

And for that there is consumer protective laws

You beat me to it

 

[rns-e]

If you do not wish to answer that, then I can understand why.

It goes to the point that from the information you posted previously, they both have the same stated 376 "horsepower motor power", so they must have the same 422 "horsepower", right?


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Exactly. And a big thanks to him for providing me with the information to make it.

And yes, I can understand how he would not want to answer that question.

I did answer that question - they may have the same horsepower for all I know and the difference in 0-60 may something completely different - for all we know they used a reversed roll out to measure the 0-60 for the 60D, I don't know and it is not my place to know, it is Teslas place to inform correctly. That is all I am saying and have been saying, but you keep grabbing for straws to hold on to so that I should have known better instead of Tesla informing correctly ...

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Well they did. They stated "horsepower motor power".

Beaten to death, but in Denmark it said 700 hp performance (may be bad translation, but maybe you think that is the customers responsibility to?)

Where did I say that one should be able to distinguish a 0-60 time with or without rollout???

But is Tesla obligated by rule of law to tell us whether or not a 0-60 time is with or without rollout??

You didn't because you know it can't be done
No, but they are obligated to it in a comparative way when set it up in an comparative table. That should not be hard to agree with

 

[wk057]

It's the label, wk. 'You defenders of Tesla' implies that Tesla is defended at all costs, regardless of 'the truth'. I'm probably sensitive - getting tired of labels. Overly tired. But I like to believe that what people post here is based on what they believe. Not based on a need to 'defend Tesla'.

Sure, we can play semantics, but I'm sure you get my point.

It would be equally bothersome to see 'You attackers of Tesla', because that would imply (imo) that by disagreeing with how Tesla did things, it was an attack on the company.

Language matters. And if the goal is civil discussion, the people should pay attention to words that are subtly inflammatory.

Point taken.

 

[P85DEE]

I did answer that question - they may have the same horsepower for all I know

Well hold on...... if they have the same horsepower, and you say above that "for all you know" they might, then why are we not seeing the same performance between the 85D and the 60D in the real world?

Is it your position that "for all you know" a 60D might run neck and neck with an 85D in the quarter mile, and post up the same quarter mile trap speed as an 85D?

More importantly, is it your position that "for all you know" a 60D has the exact same highway passing powers and same highway performance capability as an 85D?

After all, they do have the same 376 horsepower motor power according to the information you posted up.....right?

... If Tesla set out to intentionally mislead people with the horsepower motor power issue then this was a poor attempt at that. To list two cars with the exact same amount of horsepower and the only difference being the battery size but different 0-60 times would give away their attempt to hide the trick of using the term "horsepower motor power".

That wouldn't be the "only" difference though.

Unless of course one wishes to argue that there is also "no difference" in highway passing capability between the 85D and the 60D too.

I'm waiting to hear the argument one way or the other on that.

.- for all we know they used a reversed roll out to measure the 0-60 for the 60D,...

:biggrin:Well now, you're really reaching.

The argument has always been that the P85D 0-60 times were measured using rollout. The other Model S vehicles, were measured from a standing start.

I've not seen any talk, nor accusations in here about a "reversed roll out" being used to measure any of the reported 0-60 times. For 60D nor anything else.

That tells me that 60D 0-60 times are either without rollout, same as the 85D and the rest of the lineup, or were done with rollout, which not only is a stretch, but IF the case, then STILL worse than 85D 0-60 times which were done without rollout........yet they have the same "horsepower motor power", and by extension the same horsepower.

You didn't because you know it can't be done
No, but they are obligated to it in a comparative way when set it up in an comparative table. That should not be hard to agree with

Obligated by whom?

 

[Krugerrand]

I would agree to the this if Tesla made the information available so buyers could educate them selfs or even answered the question when buyers or owners asked for the information. Tesla didn't. So then it becomes tricking buyers into buying or the smarter outsmarting the less smarter (or how you say it)

And for that there is consumer protective laws

I'm not sure any of the unhappy P85D owners bothered to ask Tesla in the first place, as in prior to purchasing. Was there a group letter/email/ that went to Tesla asking for the information prior to purchasing the P85Ds that I'm not aware of and that Tesla refused to answer?

Tesla has now made the information available because it was requested by customers. Now future buyers can have a better understanding, so it doesn't appear as if Tesla had/has been unwilling. More likely Tesla simply underestimated how knowledge driven their P85D customers would be/are.

I believe that you believe you were tricked, from where I'm sitting you weren't and thusly require no protection. I've seen no evidence of malicious intent on Tesla's part to trick their customers. Indeed, everything that Tesla does is geared toward making happy customers. I acknowledge that sometimes that fails to happen, but that's real life where not everyone is happy or can be made happy. I hope that everyone can learn from this event; Tesla, current customers and future customers.

 

[P85DEE]

I'm not sure any of the unhappy P85D owners bothered to ask Tesla in the first place, as in prior to purchasing. Was there a group letter/email/ that went to Tesla asking for the information prior to purchasing the P85Ds that I'm not aware of and that Tesla refused to answer?

Tesla has now made the information available because it was requested by customers. Now future buyers can have a better understanding, so it doesn't appear as if Tesla had/has been unwilling. More likely Tesla simply underestimated how knowledge driven their P85D customers would be/are.

I believe that you believe you were tricked, from where I'm sitting you weren't and thusly require no protection. I've seen no evidence of malicious intent on Tesla's part to trick their customers. Indeed, everything that Tesla does is geared toward making happy customers. I acknowledge that sometimes that fails to happen, but that's real life where not everyone is happy or can be made happy. I hope that everyone can learn from this event; Tesla, current customers and future customers.

This thread should end with that above post.

 

[Krugerrand]

No its not. Here in scandinavia the seller/Tesla is expected to provide understandable advertising that doesnt hide or skew important facts. Introducing roll-out and new ways of showing horsepower etc etc like this is clearly questionable here.

That's a cultural difference, not intent to fool, trick, hide, skew or mislead people. If you weren't Scandinavian, you'd realize that. Sometimes considering the other side can be illuminating. Just as an example, my spouse's family is European. I am not. The very first encounters with each other were prickly (on both sides) to say the least, but we took the time to listen and get to know each other and very quickly we came to realize that all the cultural differences were in fact what made each of us interesting. Once we understood each other, it became very easy to simply 'consider' each other before speaking.

There is a very clear reason the Norwegian consumer council is indeed handling this case on behalf of the norwegian owners at the moment. They would not have done so if Tesla had adhered to normal advertising practices here. And they do this using governmental funding. This is not paid for by P85D-owners....

I'm sure Tesla will remember this valuable lesson (regardless of the outcome) when doing further business in Norway. And likely the person responsible for not strictly adhering to the way things are done in Norway has been or will be fired, so that should give you some comfort.

 

[rns-e]

Well hold on...... if they have the same horsepower, and you say above that "for all you know" they might, then why are we not seeing the same performance between the 85D and the 60D in the real world?

Is it your position that "for all you know" a 60D might run neck and neck with an 85D in the quarter mile, and post up the same quarter mile trap speed as an 85D?

More importantly, is it your position that "for all you know" a 60D has the exact same highway passing powers and same highway performance capability as an 85D?

After all, they do have the same 376 horsepower motor power according to the information you posted up.....right?

Again: I don't know and it is not my place to know, it is Teslas place to inform correctly. That is all I am saying and have been saying, but you keep grabbing for straws to hold on to so that I should have known better instead of Tesla informing correctly ...

Obligated by whom?

At least by Danish consumer law. Have a hard time believing that you are allowed to present incomparable data in a comparable table to consumers in America, but I could be wrong

 

[jpet]

I'm not sure any of the unhappy P85D owners bothered to ask Tesla in the first place, as in prior to purchasing. Was there a group letter/email/ that went to Tesla asking for the information prior to purchasing the P85Ds that I'm not aware of and that Tesla refused to answer?

Tesla has now made the information available because it was requested by customers. Now future buyers can have a better understanding, so it doesn't appear as if Tesla had/has been unwilling. More likely Tesla simply underestimated how knowledge driven their P85D customers would be/are.

I believe that you believe you were tricked, from where I'm sitting you weren't and thusly require no protection. I've seen no evidence of malicious intent on Tesla's part to trick their customers. Indeed, everything that Tesla does is geared toward making happy customers. I acknowledge that sometimes that fails to happen, but that's real life where not everyone is happy or can be made happy. I hope that everyone can learn from this event; Tesla, current customers and future customers.

When I ordered my P85D, way back in 2014, I was told by the Tesla Sales Advisors that the P85D had performance comparable to a Lamborghini. At that time, they also compared the P85+ to an M5.

I am 100% sure that these Sales Advisors were in no way trying to trick their prospects by making these comparisons. They just were as confused by the numbers as we were.

 

[Laserbrain]

Well hold on...... if they have the same horsepower, and you say above that "for all you know" they might, then why are we not seeing the same performance between the 85D and the 60D in the real world?

I am not sure about the 60D but a 70D has 332 real motor power hp while a 85D has 422 real motor power horse power.

The miseleading imaginary motor power hp, which can never ever be reached (and are therefore imaginary), are of course a lot higher.

 

[rns-e]

That's a cultural difference, not intent to fool, trick, hide, skew or mislead people. If you weren't Scandinavian, you'd realize that. Sometimes considering the other side can be illuminating. Just as an example, my spouse's family is European. I am not. The very first encounters with each other were prickly (on both sides) to say the least, but we took the time to listen and get to know each other and very quickly we came to realize that all the cultural differences were in fact what made each of us interesting. Once we understood each other, it became very easy to simply 'consider' each other before speaking.

I appreciate this story. So maybe you can help me understand the reasoning behind moving away from displaying the battery limited hp as Tesla used to, into taking a full year to display that information? Not a trick question, genuinely would like to know, since that is so far from Scandinavian thinking.

 

[Laserbrain]

That's a cultural difference, not intent to fool, trick, hide, skew or mislead people. If you weren't Scandinavian, you'd realize that.

Sorry, but selling a 469 hp car as a 691 hp car should raise everywhere on this planet some eyebrowes. And on other planets - wherever there is intelligent life.

 

[Krugerrand]

Again: I don't know and it is not my place to know, it is Teslas place to inform correctly.

That doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that any time you are buying a product that is new or you are unfamiliar with that you have zero responsibility to educate yourself before purchasing? So, if you were about to purchase your first puppy, the vendor of said puppy has all the responsibility about whether or not you should be buying that puppy in the first place? That you have zero responsibility to research what breed of dog suits your personality and living situation? That you have zero responsibility to educate yourself on how to properly care for the puppy or train the puppy?