Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

Thanks.

You don't club the goose that's laying the golden eggs to teach her a lesson. And then offer the pathetic excuse "oh, but smacking her over the head with this club will make her a better goose in the long run, and cause her to lay even bigger golden eggs".

Thats ridiculous.

Real quick, I'd like to know this from some of you doing all of this talking about deceit, deception, and such, and talking of seeking compensation such as free Ludicrous upgrades and God only knows what else, from a company which has yet to turn a profit.

Should Tesla suffer significant and irreparable damage and fail in behind all of your accusations of dishonesty and deceit, who do you expect to take their place????

Who is going to support your car?

Who is going to sell you another one?

Who will take the initiative to build another of it's type.

Who will continue Tesla's work.

Please, please, please, don't you all answer at one time.

Some of you need to think about that the next time you start up with some of all of your accusations and such.

I think it is interesting that when these people from the other forums you are so worried about find this thread, and start going for Tesla's throat, the only person they'll be able to quote talking about how this thing will bring Tesla down, cause Tesla to go belly up, etc. is you.

 

[P85DEE]

I think it is interesting that when these people from the other forums you are so worried about find this thread, and start going for Tesla's throat, the only person they'll be able to quote talking about how this thing will bring Tesla down, cause Tesla to go belly up, etc. is you.

Unbelievable.

What does it matter who says it should it come to pass Andy?

Or do you believe that's even a possibility?

 

[Andyw2100]

Unbelievable.

What does it matter who says it should it come to pass Andy?

Or do you believe that's even a possibility?

You are saying you are worried about people from other forums getting wind of this thread. If that happens, which you have said that you are gravely concerned about, I expect one of the things these people who, as you put it, are intent on seeing Tesla's demise, would love to do would be to pick out juicy quotes from this thread. And the only quotes they will find about Tesla going belly up because of the horsepower issue--the only quotes they will find about Tesla being put out of business because of the horsepower issue--will be from you!

I find that incredibly ironic.

 

[P85DEE]

You are saying you are worried about people from other forums getting wind of this thread. If that happens, which you have said that you are gravely concerned about, I expect one of the things these people who, as you put it, are intent on seeing Tesla's demise, would love to do would be to pick out juicy quotes from this thread. And the only quotes they will find about Tesla going belly up because of the horsepower issue--the only quotes they will find about Tesla being put out of business because of the horsepower issue--will be from you!

I find that incredibly ironic.

You misunderstood me.

Im not concerned about them coming across this thread so much as I'm concerned about them coming across the entire discussion of this matter and all that goes along with it, i.e. all of the threads. The whole "transcript", if you will.

The "body of work", which was in full swing long before my first ever post in here. That is what concerns me.

You see because it's from there, that anyone can pick and choose from a smorgasbord of posts on this matter and get an idea as to what's what when it comes to how this matter has progressed.

Let me me tell you what I find "incredibly ironic".

What do you think they'll find when they search all of the archives and prior discussions on this matter and make it to the letter thread Andy?

Juicy quotes from this thread????

Naaaaa. You've left them enough "juice" in that letter thread alone to hold them.

No, I'm thinking that you are destined to be recognized as one of the main characters in any situation where this matter is discussed.

 

[wk057]

Well, in all fairness, I only asked you for clarification.

It was you who brought up "those who didn't step in when Elon misspoke".

I'm not "misinterpreting" anything here, but rather I'm asking you straight up, what did they have to do with anything and why bring them up unless you think that they did?



- - - Updated - - -



I read it as "691 horsepower motor power".

Out of curiousity, did you by chance also ignore the "motor power" part of the labeling when you originally bought the car too?

I'm not "interpreting" that you did, I'm merely asking if you did.

Round and round we go. You seem to have ignored all of the posts where people interpreted "motor power" as power available at the motors (just like some other vehicle ratings that rate power at the shaft) and this was clarified by some folks at Tesla for some people as well, myself included.

(7 useless posts and 4 hours later...)

As expected, you're just posting to post and try and get under people's skin for whatever reason. Ignoring logic and reason as usual. My ignore list is getting out of hand.

Edit: I'm honestly wondering who the P85DEE account actually belongs to. Joined last month out of the blue jumped in almost exclusively on the P85D horsepower threads and the P90D quarter mile time discrepancy related threads. I find that...... interesting.

 

[Andyw2100]

You misunderstood me.

Im not concerned about them coming across this thread so much as I'm concerned about them coming across this entire discussion i.e. all of the threads.

Let me me tell you what I find "incredibly ironic".

What do you think they'll find when they search all of the archives and prior discussions on this matter and make it to the letter thread Andy?

Juicy quotes from this thread????

Naaaaa. You've left them enough "juice" in that letter thread alone to hold them.

There were threads about the issue here long before the letter thread. But of course you know that.

I just had an interesting thought.

If someone had taken a short position on Tesla, and wanted to see the stock do poorly, and wanted to spend some time posting anonymously in an online forum, it would seem posting negative things about the company would be just too obvious an approach, and would be seen through pretty easily. But what if that person could find controversial threads, and keep things stirred up? What if that person constantly posted as if he or she supported Tesla, making somewhat ridiculous arguments aimed at alienating and aggravating the people on the other side of the issue, knowing that doing so would get those people to post the arguments the instigator really wanted to see made? What if this person kept at this for weeks, and any time threads showed any hint of possibly dying down, he or she posted to make sure to get things fired up again? What if this person pointed out things that could really hurt Tesla, like specific other forums that he or she stated they really hoped would never find out about a certain thread, perhaps in the hope that one of the people who actually really do have an axe to grind with Tesla would take the information to one of those forums? What if this person made posts suggesting that Tesla could be put out of business over something like this, hoping those quotes eventually hurt Tesla?

That person would have to be some sort of an evil genius, I'd guess.

Would something like this be possible?

Nah...could never happen.

 

[P85DEE]

(7 useless posts and 4 hours later...)

As expected, you're just posting to post and try and get under people's skin for whatever reason. Ignoring logic and reason as usual. My ignore list is getting out of hand.

Edit: I'm honestly wondering who the P85DEE account actually belongs to. Joined last month out of the blue jumped in almost exclusively on the P85D horsepower threads and the P90D quarter mile time discrepancy related threads. I find that...... interesting.

And observed all of the discussions months prior to that.

- - - Updated - - -

There were threads about the issue here long before the letter thread. But of course you know that.

I just had an interesting thought.

If someone had taken a short position on Tesla, and wanted to see the stock do poorly, and wanted to spend some time posting anonymously in an online forum, it would seem posting negative things about the company would be just too obvious an approach, and would be seen through pretty easily. But what if that person could find controversial threads, and keep things stirred up? What if that person constantly posted as if he or she supported Tesla, making somewhat ridiculous arguments aimed at alienating and aggravating the people on the other side of the issue, knowing that doing so would get those people to post the arguments the instigator really wanted to see made? What if this person kept at this for weeks, and any time threads showed any hint of possibly dying down, he or she posted to make sure to get things fired up again? What if this person pointed out things that could really hurt Tesla, like specific other forums that he or she stated they really hoped would never find out about a certain thread, perhaps in the hope that one of the people who actually really do have an axe to grind with Tesla would take the information to one of those forums? What if this person made posts suggesting that Tesla could be put out of business over something like this, hoping those quotes eventually hurt Tesla?

That person would have to be some sort of an evil genius, I'd guess.

Would something like this be possible?

Nah...could never happen.

Let me make sure I'm following you here.

You think that my comments are intended to manipulate stock prices?

Is that all you got???

First you accused me of being a non owner. But later had to quiet down when I showed you my receipt for the Luducrous upgrade.

Now you imply that I'm attempting to manipulate stock prices.

You're reaching. You were reaching on the horsepower issue and free Luducrous. Now you think you're seeing someone attempting to manipulate stock prices.

No, if anything I'm calling out my fellow Tesla owners for making a mountain out of a molehill when it came to the entire horsepower matter in the P85D and their refusal to take responsibility for their own lack of thoroughness prior to purchase.

BTW. How do I go about adding that comment to my signature stating that my posts are not to be quoted outside of this forum? As I most certainly do not want them quoted outside of this forum.

 

[woof]

I doubt Tesla will go bankrupt over this issue, and if they do, it's due to their own actions and there's nothing members posting on this or any other forum will have done to cause it, or to prevent it.

It is not our place to tread lightly because of what other's may or may not do. Changing the discussion because bad things might happen to a company we like is absurd. Changing the discussion in order to gloss over things the company did (or didn't do) because others may find out about it is even more absurd.

This is a place to speak ones mind, regardless of what may or may not happen to Tesla. Don't be so arrogant as to think our ramblings here have any effect on the viability of Tesla as a going concern.

If this incident turns out to be what bankrupts the company, so be it. That would be due to Tesla's inappropriate behavior, not ours.

Not discussing it freely and openly (all sides) in order to "protect Tesla" would be inappropriate behavior on our part.

You may now continue the petty bickering, I find it most intriguing.

 

[Andyw2100]

First you accused me of being a non owner. But later had to quiet down when I showed you my receipt for the Luducrous upgrade.

I didn't accuse you of being a non-owner. I merely suggested that as a possibility. And what are you talking about with respect to showing me a Ludicrous upgrade receipt? I'm not sure what that would prove, in any case, but I do not know what you are talking about. If you posted one in this thread, I missed it.

 

[P85DEE]

I doubt Tesla will go bankrupt over this issue, and if they do, it's due to their own actions and there's nothing members posting on this or any other forum will have done to cause it, or to prevent it.

It is not our place to tread lightly because of what other's may or may not do. Changing the discussion because bad things might happen to a company we like is absurd. Changing the discussion in order to gloss over things the company did (or didn't do) because others may find out about it is even more absurd.

This is a place to speak ones mind, regardless of what may or may not happen to Tesla. Don't be so arrogant as to think our ramblings here have any effect on the viability of Tesla as a going concern.

If this incident turns out to be what bankrupts the company, so be it. That would be due to Tesla's inappropriate behavior, not ours.

Not discussing it freely and openly (all sides) in order to "protect Tesla" would be inappropriate behavior on our part.

You may now continue the petty bickering, I find it most intriguing.

Interesting commentary.

I'm still in awe that anyone could mistake me for a stock price manipulator.

I've seen some absurd stuff in here, but that by far takes the cake.

I don't know whether to laugh or shake my head at the notion that anyone could dream up such.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't accuse you of being a non-owner. I merely suggested that as a possibility. And what are you talking about with respect to showing me a Ludicrous upgrade receipt? I'm not sure what that would prove, in any case, but I do not know what you are talking about. If you posted one in this thread, I missed it.

No, you didn't accuse me of being a non owner.

Just like you're not accusing me of attempting to manipulate Tesla stock prices now.

I must say though, your last comments, leave no doubt in my mind as to just how the idea for that letter hatched.

 

[wk057]

(Redacted... I don't know why I bother. I'll just come back tomorrow and there will be 40 more pages of garbage and insults in this thread.)

 

[dsm363]

mod note: Everyone is just talking past each other at this point. This is a car #1 and #2 we're talking about a single number on a 3ish second car. Let's try and keep some perspective.

 

[P85DEE]

mod note: Everyone is just talking past each other at this point. This is a car #1 and #2 we're talking about a single number on a 3ish second car. Let's try and keep some perspective.

ok dsm363

 

[Andyw2100]

I must say though, your last comments, leave no doubt in my mind as to just how the idea for that letter hatched.

I don't even know what that means, but if you're implying what I think you are it makes no sense. Unlike you, I am not anonymous. I held Tesla stock at the time I wrote the letter, and would be happy to demonstrate that to a neutral and trusted third-party. I have never held a short position in Tesla, and would be happy to demonstrate that as well.

But getting back to when you showed me your receipt for the Ludicrous upgrade, could you please elaborate on that? Did you post it in this thread?

 

[NSX1992]

I'm probably going to get hell for this, but enough is enough. I'm sick and tired of your crap, dude. You're seriously getting on my nerves with this continuous down talk. It's rude, disrespectful, completely uncalled for, and you have absolutely no right to speak out against anyone here in such a manner. You're intentionally trying to get people fired up, and you know what? It's working. Congratulations.

First, you have NO IDEA what research myself and others did prior to purchasing the P85D. None what so ever. Why? Becasuse you conveniently ignore those posts because they don't suite your agenda. So don't you DARE talk down to me and other owners just because with the benefit of hindsight you want to make yourself seem better than everyone else. Do you own a P85D ordered in October 2014? Didn't think so. So just cut the crap. It's old, and you've contributed absolutely squat to this discussion.

Next, and while I owe you absolutely no explanation (again!), myself and many others did specifically ask Tesla representatives about the 691 HP "motor power" and it was explained as "horsepower available at the motors, not the wheels," and in similar wordings in emails and face to face conversations. So again, don't you claim to know what actual P85D buyers researched and didn't research. It's arrogant and downright offensive.

I've been doing my best to just step back from this whole discussion, but when you're going to continuously insult the intelligence of everyone here with your pointless ramblings my blood pressure goes up a bit.

I'll be in PA soon, actually (business). You're welcome to meet up and tell me to my face that I didn't do my research before buying the P85D. I'll even buy lunch just to see if you've got the gull.

I agree completely. I am an engineer and a gear head and am tired of being insulted.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[tomas]

Sitting in the middle, I gotta say, the ramblings are just as pointless on both extremes.

 

[Andyw2100]

(Redacted... I don't know why I bother. I'll just come back tomorrow and there will be 40 more pages of garbage and insults in this thread.)

You weren't quick enough!

Plus you offered to buy lunch. Perhaps he'll take you up on that offer!

- - - Updated - - -

Sitting in the middle, I gotta say, the ramblings are just as pointless on both extremes.

There have been a number of people on one side of this discussion who have seemingly gone out of their way to make things personal, and to insult those of us on the other side of the argument. That is, for the most part, only a recent development. Previously, while the discussions were heated, for the most part they did not devolve into the personal. That has been a change for the worse.

 

[wk057]

You weren't quick enough!

Plus you offered to buy lunch. Perhaps he'll take you up on that offer!

Wait, look! A kitten!

Two kittens!

 

[gsxdsm]

This discussion is devolving rapidly. Mods - I think a lock would be healthy for this thread. We've debated the issue over and over and neither "side" (aren't we all on the same side really?) can get past a fundamental difference in interpretation. For everyone's sanity I think we should lock the thread and move on to other discussions.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Let me simplify this for you such that we might get agreement....
it seems there is a portion of people what implies "horsepower" with no modifier as defined to be "horsepower the car makes somewhere in the system"
...
I think this is a better description.

That is too loose, which is why I went more specific in specifying the motor shaft. Under that criteria you can go all the way upstream to the chemical power of the battery (before internal resistance is accounted for) and get 400V*1300A = 520kW / 697hp (rather than ~320V*1300A = 416kW / 558hp at the battery output after energy is lost to heat via internal resistance).

Do you not agree that if the vehicle has "691 hp" labelled that somewhere in the system it should be measurable as such?

If the vehicle has "691hp" labeled, the standard convention is that it describes the power of the engine (or motor) rated with various attachments to it depending on the standard used. That was how horsepower was specified and defined since the car was invented (again google definition: "a unit of power equal to 550 foot-pounds per second (745.7 watts). the power of an engine measured in terms of this.").

You can go look up some articles on cars coming out. The way they describe horsepower is in reference to the engine. Here's an example just posted a couple hours ago:

Here’s the really important thing about the new 2016 Mazda CX-9: a 2.5-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine with 250 horsepower and 310 pound-feet of torque.

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/the-2016-mazda-cx-9-turns-your-family-hauling-into-a-tu-1743383090

The focus on the engine is why horsepower has continually been specified by automakers on the output shaft instead of the wheels. The way it is measured is also always starting with the engine on a test bench and then adding attachments to it (rather than taking a car apart to measure at shaft). If we really wanted to describe the car as a whole, there is really only one horsepower metric that matters: wheel horsepower.

While my example of SAE gross power was continually brushed off, I note that it does not match the criteria above: "horsepower the car makes somewhere in the system". Yet Ram still uses that standard today in their diesel trucks and says "385 hp" on their website with no asterisks or footnotes of any kind.

Basically my point is "horsepower the car makes somewhere in the system" is the opinion of some people here on what "horsepower" means when used without a modifier. However, I don't agree that is the fundamental definition of horsepower.

You can go through the entire list of existing horsepower rating standards used by the auto industry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Engine_power_test_standards

You will find every one of them meets the definition of "horsepower at the output shaft of the engine/motor", but there are plenty that do not meet "horsepower the car makes somewhere in the system" because they don't necessarily have all accessories attached or with factory standard accessories/settings.

Some examples: SAE J1995 gross, SAE J2723 certified (SAE J1995 gross section), ECE R85 (electric drivetrain), ISO 2534, JIS D 1001 gross.

If not, then why not just say the motors support infinity horsepower and then let customers take you to court when in the year 3999 GWh batteries are available and the motors fail at around 800 hp?

This is a straw man. Motors (and in Tesla's standard, the motor controllers/inverters) can't support infinity horsepower. Motors are limited by rpm, operating voltage, and thermal (and by extension current) limitations. Motor and electric drivetrains are commonly specified by power independent of the battery. "Motor power" is but one example. Here's some examples previously posted:
UQM 150kW system:
https://uqm.com/products/full-electric/prototype/commercial-vehicles/
AC Propulsion 75kW and 150kW systems:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-drivesystem.html