Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[rns-e]

There was an earlier post (dozens of pages ago) where somebody asked "what remedy do you want". It appears (inferred from posts) that there are a wide variety of remedies people seek. Ranging from an admission and apology to upgrade to enable a full 691 HP at the axle. And everything in between. Including: free Ludicrous upgrade or $20k refund or buy back car.

For those in the admission camp - the website changes are likely all you will ever get. No company is going to "admit" something that opens the doors to claims. Instead, they will publish a different metric, while steadfastly insisting that what they originally published was also an acceptable metric. Sound familiar?

For those in the "gimme 691 at the axle" camp - just how do you think anyone could do this? You might as well ask for your money back.

For the in-betweeners, are you hoping that a young, growing, cash-constrained, profit-seeking company is going to reach into their pockets and give you a free upgrade or rebate? Only if there's no recourse. They are already offering the best upgrade they have roughly "at cost".

For those who just want Tesla to simply be more attentive to how they construe performance metrics - I believe that point has been received.

The problem with class actions (for anyone who is willing to pony up the effort to take it that far) is that all these camps - with their different expectations - are combined into one group, and they all share the same fate (usually settlement), which will probably not satisfy many (except all the lawyers). And, as has been pointed out upstream, others who didn't feel that harmed to begin with join the action mid-stream with their own set of expectations - or just after a buck if one comes flying their way.

I personally think the first 100 pages of this thread was worthwhile - to let Tesla know some customers felt deceived. Beyond that, what's the point? The Danish and Norwegian groups are following their process. I don't know the laws and procedures there, so not right to comment. I do know this: anyone who goes that path in US has a low probability of being satisfied.

It is always difficult to merge so many different peoples expectations into one outcome that everybody is happy with, I think you are right about that. There is clearly some difference in how things are handled legally in Norway and Denmark and America. Norway and Denmark it is not a class action suit at this point and I do not think it will come to that, as they are very rare. It will take some time before there is any conclusion to the cases. It is going to be interesting to see the outcome and reasoning behind the outcome, no matter which way it will go.

From what I have read over the last many posts speculating over the legal issue, I think the posts from the UK are closest to how it will be interpreted in Norway and Denmark.

 

[Laserbrain]

It is going to be interesting to see the outcome and reasoning behind the outcome, no matter which way it will go.

I don't think that we will ever see an outcome - because the outcome will most likely include an NDA.

 

[P85DEE]

No, I'm not saying that at all. You have a weird habit of working really hard to misinterpret the written word.

Well, in all fairness, I only asked you for clarification.

It was you who brought up "those who didn't step in when Elon misspoke".

I'm not "misinterpreting" anything here, but rather I'm asking you straight up, what did they have to do with anything and why bring them up unless you think that they did?



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Let me simplify this for you such that we might get agreement.

I think this is a better description. Do you not agree that if the vehicle has "691 hp" labelled that somewhere in the system it should be measurable as such? If not, then why not just say the motors support infinity horsepower and then let customers take you to court when in the year 3999 GWh batteries are available and the motors fail at around 800 hp?

I read it as "691 horsepower motor power".

Out of curiousity, did you by chance also ignore the "motor power" part of the labeling when you originally bought the car too?

I'm not "interpreting" that you did, I'm merely asking if you did.

 

[brianman]

I read it as "691 horsepower motor power".

Out of curiousity, did you by chance also ignore the "motor power" part of the labeling when you originally bought the car too?

I'm not "interpreting" that you did, I'm merely asking if you did.

That question was directed at stopcrazypp, not you. You've already made it abundantly clear to me that progress on this topic is not your goal.

 

[wk057]

Well, in all fairness, I only asked you for clarification.

It was you who brought up "those who didn't step in when Elon misspoke".

I'm not "misinterpreting" anything here, but rather I'm asking you straight up, what did they have to do with anything?

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I read it as "691 horsepower motor power".

Out of curiousity, did you by chance also ignore the "motor power" part of the labeling when you originally bought the car too?

I'm not "interpreting" that you did, I'm merely asking if you did.

Round and round we go. You seem to have ignored all of the posts where people interpreted "motor power" as power available at the motors (just like some other vehicle ratings that rate power at the shaft) and this was clarified by some folks at Tesla for some people as well, myself included.

 

[P85DEE]

That question was directed at stopcrazypp, not you. You've already made it abundantly clear to me that progress on this topic is not your goal.

In part because everyone at Tesla is afraid to step in when Elon misspeaks.

Something tells me that you won't explain how or why this would matter.

 

[lolachampcar]

EE,
Is there no limit to the people you will attempt to antagonize? (Hint, Brianman will bring you no joy)

 

[P85DEE]

EE,
Is there no limit to the people you will attempt to antagonize? (Hint, Brianman will bring you no joy)

Not looking for any "joy" from him.

Just asking a straight question with regard to his comment:

In part because everyone at Tesla is afraid to step in when Elon misspeaks.

Even if true, then what difference would it make?

On the website, it stated "691 horsepower motor power".

How would anyone's "fear" of stepping in when Elon misspeaks, change that?

And FWIW, it appears that most of those whom I'm seeming to "antagonize", are those who feel that Tesla is somehow culpable in this matter, when at least on this side of the pond, the problem seems to be in the "assumption" that " 691 horsepower motor power" meant the same as "691 horsepower". A few North American consumers commenting in here, and who are most vocal about this matter in here, seem to be willing to accept no responsibility themselves whatsoever in this matter.

Now, who is at fault for doing the assuming?

If a customer sees the words "691 horsepower motor power", and chooses to ignore the word "motor" in that, well then he has to assume responsibility for glossing over that term and taking a part of that term out, in order to make it fit his assumption.

You pay attention to all of the terms. And if a "new" term comes up that you have not seen before, well then you research it fully so that you can get an accurate perspective of how it stacks up to that which you are familiar with.

What other car has he bought which didn't simply state "XXX horsepower", instead of "XXX horsepower motor power"?

If he's owned ICE vehicles, and he probably has for years, as the P85D is usually not a first car for most people, well then he's likely never seen this term "horsepower motor power" before, and simply saw "horsepower" when he was purchasing those other vehicles.

Especially if he is a horsepower shopper, which seems to be the population in here which is most upset about this matter.

Now, all of a sudden he sees "horsepower motor power". He should have known something was "different" or "unusual" when he saw the different designation than what he had seen before to begin with. Or did he only see what he wanted to see, and simply neglected the "motor power" part of it and hastily assume that it meant the same as he had always seen when he was shopping horsepower?

When he saw the difference, well then he should have started digging to find out if XXX horsepower, means the exact same thing as XXX horsepower motor power.

Had someone told him "DIN", he would have looked to see how that stacks up against what he is familiar with.

So why didn't he do the same when "horsepower motor power" was used in place of the usual designation of simply "horsepower" and who is ultimately responsible for that?

 

[jerry33]

For what its worth, it has become much more like every other car forum I've ever been a part of.

I suspect that's what happens when the forum members grow from a small set of enthusiasts to a broader based audience. However, if you go on some programming language forums, TMC seems pretty great by comparison.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'll just argue that the Ludicrous mode fuse and contactor updates at $5000 is in no way shape or form "at cost." Edit: If that were true, then they've increased the cost of their battery packs by something like $4000, since they include this hardware now regardless of Ludicrous mode... which I highly doubt they've done.

Cost is a thorny subject at times. I suspect what they're considering "cost" here includes R&D and some budgeting for repairs/servicing of P vehicles if/when the new tech (fuse/contactor) has teething issues.

Purely conjecture on my part.

Tesla may well be considering the things you mention in their cost, Brian, but as far as I know, Tesla has never suggested that $5000 was their cost, or that they were offering the Ludicrous upgrade to P85D owners at cost, or anything like that. The only place Tesla ever mentioned cost, related to this upgrade, was when it was initially announced, and Musk said it would be offered for $5000 plus the cost of installation. Unless I'm mistaken, this concept that $5,000 represents Tesla's cost has not come from Tesla.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

Yes, but please don't take anything I post as a legal opinion. I don't have all the facts to properly provide an opinion and, more importantly, no one is paying me here for my opinion.

Canuck do you have from your perspective as knowledgeable in the field of law an understanding of what type of legal advice Tesla have been given (As an US company I will assume that the legal department in Tesla (or external advisor) have been directly involved) prior to the changes that in fact have been done on their web site with regards to HP numbers.

First change: Removing any trace of a combined number of HP motor power (the infamous 691.) and just giving the HP motor separately for the two motors.

Second change: Start referencing to the R85 testing standard

Third change: Include information of 1 foot roll out on their 0-60(0-100 numbers much later in time in Europe) numbers.

Fourth change: Post a technical blog explaining HP numbers but omitting actually state the battery limited HP number for the model in the lineup that actually are limited by battery power.

Fifth change: Include the battery limited HP number of the actual vehicle in addition to the separate motor HP number.

I don't think the "changes" you describe are enough. If Canuck was to represent Tesla's side, he would need to know internally what drove those decisions, not simply the results which can be open to interpretation.

For example, here's my interpretation:
1) That number was pulled in May response to the 691hp thread saying it was misleading. That does not mean Tesla thinks it is wrong, simply that Tesla is listening to customer complaints (they perhaps thought this would let the thread "die" as some expected it would).
2) The R85 standard was actually referenced since *before* the P85D and other dual motor cars came out. This was not something Tesla pulled out afterwards.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...or-P85D-and-P90L/page81?p=1229983#post1229983
3) This can be interpreted as clarification, not a correction. Ultimately they have not changed their 0-60 numbers advertised (and as has been pointed out many times, US automakers tend to advertise this way by default).
4) Much interpretation has gone into this, but it can be very similar to #1. Stating the battery-limited number may be interpreted as the 691hp number being "wrong" (which some have done exactly that in this thread), so Tesla had avoided doing so for the P85D all this time.
5) I expected actually Tesla not to do this until after there is some kind of material change (like a new motor or new SAE rating standard), but they did (but did so in a way that kept "motor power" going and still as the primary metric). Again similar to #1, this may simply be Tesla listening to consumer concern (again perhaps it will let the thread die as some also predicted when this happened), not necessarily them admitting fault.

Then I will update my "list" and Canuck or others knowledgeable in the field of law please chime in…

First change: Removing any trace of a combined number of HP motor power (the infamous 691.) and just giving the HP motor separately for the two motors and at the same time remove all references to the R85 testing standard.

Second change: Start referencing to the R85 testing standard again

Third change: Include information of 1 foot roll out on their 0-60(0-100 numbers much later in time in Europe were 0 actually always have been 0) numbers.

Fourth change: Post a technical blog explaining HP numbers but omitting state the battery limited HP number for the model in the lineup that actually are limited by battery power.

Fifth change: Include the battery limited HP number of the actual vehicle in addition to the separate motor HP number.

 

[yak-55]

Not looking for any "joy" from him.

Just asking a straight question with regard to his comment:



Even if true, then what difference would it make?

On the website, it stated "691 horsepower motor power".

How would anyone's "fear" of stepping in when Elon misspeaks, change that?

And FWIW, it appears that most of those whom I'm seeming to "antagonize", are those who feel that Tesla is somehow culpable in this matter, when at least on this side of the pond, the problem seems to be in the "assumption" that " 691 horsepower motor power" meant the same as "691 horsepower". A few North American consumers commenting in here, and who are most vocal about this matter in here, seem to be willing to accept no responsibility themselves whatsoever in this matter.

Now, who is at fault for doing the assuming?

If a customer sees the words "691 horsepower motor power", and chooses to ignore the word "motor" in that, well then he has to assume responsibility for glossing over that term and taking a part of that term out, in order to make it fit his assumption.

You pay attention to all of the terms. And if a "new" term comes up that you have not seen before, well then you research it fully so that you can get an accurate perspective of how it stacks up to that which you are familiar with.

What other car has he bought which didn't simply state "XXX horsepower", instead of "XXX horsepower motor power"?

If he's owned ICE vehicles, and he probably has for years, as the P85D is usually not a first car for most people, well then he's likely never seen this term "horsepower motor power" before, and simply saw "horsepower" when he was purchasing those other vehicles.

Especially if he is a horsepower shopper, which seems to be the population in here which is most upset about this matter.

Now, all of a sudden he sees "horsepower motor power". He should have known something was "different" or "unusual" when he saw the different designation than what he had seen before to begin with. Or did he only see what he wanted to see, and simply neglected the "motor power" part of it and hastily assume that it meant the same as he had always seen when he was shopping horsepower?

When he saw the difference, well then he should have started digging to find out if XXX horsepower, means the exact same thing as XXX horsepower motor power.

Had someone told him "DIN", he would have looked to see how that stacks up against what he is familiar with.

So why didn't he do the same when "horsepower motor power" was used in place of the usual designation of simply "horsepower" and who is ultimately responsible for that?

if your willing to allow this kind of tortuous interpretation, nothing Tesla says can be taken as it's plain meaning. They could simply state the car has 691 wheel horsepower then claim the wheels meet some obscure torque and rpm specification equating to 691 horsepower. Of course if the buyer were so trusting as to assume the CAR so described sends 691 hp to the wheels-that would just be their stupidity, buyer beware, etc, etc, etc

 

[Krugerrand]

You're welcome to that opinion. I simply don't agree, and frankly consider that clause unfair to both parties. The customer is "black marked" as a Tesla buyer -- losing out on opportunity on future products. Tesla loses the customer forever. Punishment for both parties -- independent of the remedy for the issue at hand -- still seems absurd to me.

Yeah, um...we don't actually disagree since I said exactly that, and I quote myself: "That can even be viewed as a punishment for both sides"

 

[P85DEE]

if your willing to allow this kind of tortuous interpretation, nothing Tesla says can be taken as it's plain meaning. They could simply state the car has 691 wheel horsepower then claim the wheels meet some obscure torque and rpm specification equating to 691 horsepower. Of course if the buyer were so trusting as to assume the CAR so described sends 691 hp to the wheels-that would just be their stupidity, buyer beware, etc, etc, etc

You know, I look at some of the comments in here, and I wonder sometimes if some of us know just how much we and our cars are unwanted in the rest of the automotive community.

The outiright hatred for Tesla and everything which is Tesla, and the sometimes outright contempt for Tesla owners. I wonder if some of you have any notion whatsoever, any clue, how much we and are cars are not wanted. The inaccurate stereotypes about Tesla owners, and Teslas. The deliberate misinformation about Teslas and Tesla. The near rabid anticipation for Tesla"s demise. I wonder when I read some of your comments on this matter if you know what this company is up against, and by extension what you are sometimes up against, when it comes to the rest of the automotive community.

There are those who would like nothing more than to see the Tesla go the way of the Tucker, the Studebaker, the Packard, the Edsel or the Cord.

It would seem that a group of Tesla car enthusiasts would be aware of that.

So it's odd to see some of us not only seemingly go out of our way to point the finger of blame at Tesla on this matter and assume no personal responsibility whatsoever with regard to it, but to even go so far as to make outright and blatant accusations of deceit, deception, dishonesty, and other such derisive comments, and then top it all off and take the approach that we are "owed" something.

Accusations which Tesla detractors would be more than happy to use themselves.

If I didn't know any better, some of the comments I've seen in here over the past few months, I'd swear that I was in a forum heavily populated by people who had only contempt for Tesla Motors.

Well, here's a hint. Keep it up, keep up with the accusations and innuendo about dishonesty on the part of Tesla here, and it won't be a stronger Tesla that you see, but a considerably weaker one.

It is not out of the question that this company can still go belly up, and support for your cars, as well as the value of your cars will go straight down the hole with it. And accusations like what we are seeing in here, will do more to increase the chances of that, than decrease the chances of that. Some of you are playing with fire with some of these accusations and positions that you are taking on this matter. And you apparently do not realize that the consequences of what you're doing, or are planning on doing, or have been discussing doing, could well result in a defunct Tesla Motors. No doubt a welcome sight for those who dislike us as Tesla owners, Tesla Motors, and Teslas.

 

[AWDtsla]

You know, I look at some of the comments in here, and I wonder sometimes if some of us know just how much we and our cars are unwanted in the rest of the automotive community.

The outiright hatred for Tesla and everything which is Tesla, and the sometimes outright contempt for Tesla owners

I keep checking the other car forums for when this thread hits there. The amount of hate and vitriol is already quite vile, and that's associated with good tesla news.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

A Tesla that does not learn from its mistakes, communicate in a way (intentinally or not) that costomers percive as unclear or even worce deciving, ban their most loyal best paying coustomers from ever buing a Tesla again will of cource go belly up...

I really hope that you EE are not a Tesla employee and that you have no influence on teslas future actions in any way.

 

[P85DEE]

I keep checking the other car forums for when this thread hits there. The amount of hate and vitriol is already quite vile, and that's associated with good tesla news.

I thought that I was the only one doing that.

The day this whole fiasco, the accusations of dishonesty, and deceit and the demands for compensation and a sample of some of the talk and positions on this matter displayed in here, should hit the ICE forums, especially the fora which GM, Ford and Dodge owners populate, it will be one of the darkest days this community will ever know.

Now it would seem that there are those who would like to sully it's reputation, the P85D, and Tesla's reputation along with it, with accusations of deceit, and undermine that which this flagship vehicle has accomplished, through their comments and accusations of deception and dishonesty.

You are right, and honestly, I've not seen anything quite like it, the amount of vitriol against this car and it's owners from the outside. It's disturbing to see something similar, but coming from within.

Indeed, the P85D, though, had pretty much quieted a lot of it down, the derisive talk against Tesla in particular and EVs in general amongst the ICE community.

But it would certainly seem to me that Tesla has more than it's share of those who would like to see it suffer a significant setback, or setbacks, outside of here, and it would hardly need any inside of here whose goal would appear to be the same thing.

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A Tesla that does not learn from its mistakes, communicate in a way (intentinally or not) that costomers percive as unclear or even vorce deciving will ban their most loyal best paying coustomers will of cource go belly up...

T really hope that you EE are not a Tesla employee EE and have no influence on teslas future actionsin any way.

Since I've indicated that I would blackball any P85D owner who attempted to gain from this matter, and ban him or her for life from ever purchasing another Tesla from Tesla, in large part because I know that the impact on Tesla would be monumentally negative should this whole matter and the accusations associated with it, ever hit the ears of those in the ICE community who hate this company, and it's customers, then yes, I can see how you might feel that way.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

I hope this thread sets a new record for total number of posts.

We can do this.

Go team.

 

[gsxdsm]

P85DEE - Well said and I agree 100%. So many here are losing perspective - a $5k or $10k win over technicalities and misinterpretations in the short term could cause a significant long term impact and put the reality of future products in significant jeopardy.

 

[P85DEE]

P85DEE - Well said and I agree 100%. So many here are losing perspective - a $5k or $10k win over technicalities and misinterpretations in the short term could cause a significant long term impact and put the reality of future products in significant jeopardy.

Thanks.

You don't club the goose that's laying the golden eggs to teach her a lesson. And then offer the pathetic excuse "oh, but smacking her over the head with this club will make her a better goose in the long run, and cause her to lay even bigger golden eggs".

Thats ridiculous.

Real quick, I'd like to know this from some of you doing all of this talking about deceit, deception, and such, and talking of seeking compensation such as free Ludicrous upgrades and God only knows what else, from a company which has yet to turn a profit.

Should Tesla suffer significant and irreparable damage and fail in behind all of your accusations of dishonesty and deceit, who do you expect to take their place????

Who is going to support your car?

Who is going to sell you another one?

Who will take the initiative to build another of it's type.

Who will continue Tesla's work.

Please, please, please, don't you all answer at one time.

Some of you need to think about that the next time you start up with some of all of your accusations and such.