Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[vgrinshpun]

Everything improves about the car with dual motor. There is no technical drawback in this case

And we've also in the highest power version, P85D, actually retained the larger motor and added medium size motor to the front which basically gives a car half a gain as much power. Because a P85 was sort of pretty good, you know on a power front as probably bunch of you have those cars, but this car is nuts, it is like taking off the carrier deck. It's just bananas. It's like having your own personal roller-coaster

"It is like" is not related to the "general atributes of the car" - it is related to the acceleration of performance model - P85d from a stand still. Exactly where 50% more (motor) power counts.

 

[Andyw2100]

"It is like" is not related to the "general atributes of the car" - it is related to the acceleration of performance model - P85d from a stand still. Exactly where 50% more (motor) power counts.

OK, then which feature is "this car is nuts" referring to? What about "it's just bananas?" Can you tell me which feature he's talking about there?

 

[vgrinshpun]

And i notice that he didn't say that 'the motors' have half again as much power, but that's what he was talking about right--the motor power, not the car...?

In the context of launching the car motor power and power are the same. Battery limitation does not come into play at launch.

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OK, then which feature is "this car is nuts" referring to? What about "it's just bananas?" Can you tell me which feature he's talking about there?

Acceleration from a stand still. The one that is enabled by having 50% more power (and more importantly - torque)

 

[Andyw2100]

Acceleration from a stand still. The one that is enabled by having 50% more power (and more importantly - torque)

Cool.

Can you tell me next week's winning lottery numbers too?

 

[vgrinshpun]

Cool.

Can you tell me next week's winning lottery numbers too?

That is very convincing argument indeed.

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I think the arguments are rooted in two key facts:

1. Tesla buyers say the overstated HP led them to believe their P85D would accelerate like cars with comparable HP and weight.

2. Documents Tesla later corrected, prove they overstated HP, but those original documents also specified acceleration (0-60 and 1/4 mile) which P85Ds met.

[FONT=&amp]In other words, Tesla's mistake was overstating HP. The buyer's mistake was ignoring the acceleration specification. [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Do these mistakes cancel 50/50? If not, which mistake trumps the other and by how much? [/FONT]I don't have an opinion on the answers to these questions at this point and I don't own a P85D.

Actually, to clarify your Item 2, Tesla did not overstate HP, they stated *motor* horsepower per the European Regulation ECE R85, which defines motor (more precisely drivetrain) horsepower without considering the limitation of the propulsion battery.

See couple of my posts for more technical details on the meaning of the motor horsepower:

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 50

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 63

 

[Auzie]

That is very convincing argument indeed.

 

[Canuck]

"Although Musk has now moved on to driving the latest offerings from Tesla, his silver F1 remains the performance benchmark for his company. Last year, Musk proudly touted the Tesla Model S P85D's ability to match the McLaren's 3.2-second 0-to-60-mph acceleration time.

Here's a short clip from the documentary:"

Young Elon Musk featured in documentary about millionaires (1999) - YouTube

Watch a young Elon Musk take delivery of his McLaren F1 hypercar — before he wrecked it - Business Insider

Musk always boasted about 0-to-60 times but never trying to match an ICE with endurance. Heck, the F1 goes more than 240 mph -- we need the flux capacitor to beat that. Then again, Tesla should have clarified the hp number better because the actual hp doesn't account for the acceleration and the motor hp doesn't account for battery power.

 

[Bill D]

Actually, to clarify your Item 2, Tesla did not overstate HP, they stated *motor* horsepower per the European Regulation ECE R85, which defines motor (more precisely drivetrain) horsepower without considering the limitation of the propulsion battery.

Thanks. That slants the argument more in Tesla's favor.

 

[gsxdsm]

As we are on the verge of another 100+ page thread...when will mods start locking these? Isn't there anything better we can discuss? There is no argument here, just circular reasoning, emotions, legal threats, redefinitions, etc. Really just noise at this point...

 

[P85DEE]

That is very convincing argument indeed.

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Actually, to clarify your Item 2, Tesla did not overstate HP, they stated *motor* horsepower per the European Regulation ECE R85, which defines motor (more precisely drivetrain) horsepower without considering the limitation of the propulsion battery.

See couple of my posts for more technical details on the meaning of the motor horsepower:

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 50

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 63

I can find absolutely nowhere that Tesla "overstated horsepower numbers" for the P85D in any of their marketing materials.

They stated "691 horsepower motor power" in their descriptions of the P85D in those materials.

As mentioned before, if someone took "horsepower motor power" to simply mean "horsepower" and left the "motor power" part off of the description,well then that's their error, not Tesla's.

But Tesla never advertised this car as making "691 horsepower". They said "691 horsepower motor power".

JB Straubel explained a lot here, and I thought this matter was now understood.

 

[gsxdsm]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to P85DEE again.

 

[Canuck]

As we are on the verge of another 100+ page thread...when will mods start locking these? Isn't there anything better we can discuss? There is no argument here, just circular reasoning, emotions, legal threats, redefinitions, etc. Really just noise at this point...

This is an important issue and I'm certain Tesla pays attention to the 100+ page threads here. Hopefully, they can learn something from it because they have alienated a number of people with this issue.

Plus, some of us like this thread. If you don't, there's no required reading here. There's many other threads.

 

[MikeBur]

and I disagree with the assertion that Tesla provided factually correct hp numbers at the launch and thus is not responsible for people thinking the car actually had a lot more power. Elon and crew knew exactly what they were doing and had plans to deliver more but got caught up in the reality of pulling it off.

This would also align with my sales rep who mentioned that there was an internal TM memo a few days before the p85D event that was stating 0-60 of 2.8secs. She convinced me this was coming still, though what I have really cared about is the 50% more power than p85 as my understanding was the would help the 50-70 times significantly.
i worry that if someone, not me, does make it a legal matter that a lien on a few key email accounts will reveal the truth on the matter, making this a potentially very public revelation.

In terms of your original Q, I align with Andy. I already have the upgrade pre-ordered and will have it installed though the only thing I care about is 50-70 times as this car doesn't pull anything like an rs7 there. I have lost trust on TMs ability to portray real data in this regard, though hope for data and upgrades quickly.

 

[Troy]

Tesla used to advertise actual hp numbers. A few pages ago, in this message forum member rns-e explained how Tesla changed their advertisement method. I want to add another screenshot that explains this change. The change is best demonstrated when looking at S60 and S85 numbers because these two cars have the same motor. The motor is capable of producing 380 hp in a lab environment. When attached to a 60 kWh battery, it produces 302 hp. With an 85 kWh battery it produces 362 hp.

For some reason, on 10 Oct 2014 Tesla switched to displaying the theoretical hp of the motor instead what it produces when attached to the car. That kind of information belongs to the specs page. It is not relevant when comparing different models before making a purchase decision.

Moreover, Tesla did not just add the theoretical number. They also removed the actual hp number. This means, they made different models incomparable. Instead having horsepower and 0-60 times, the only data left was 0-60 time. That wasn't accurate either. The S85D used to show 5.2s.

After the D event:

 

[MikeBur]

It's not the word 'defenders' it's the 'you defenders' and the intent behind it, which was inflammatory. Posts can be written just as easily without the provocative content and still get points across. It does not matter that you personally see nothing wrong with it, others do, and it's respectful to consider others. And particularly on a subject that's already got people shooting first and asking questions later.

Can we assume best intent here by default?
1) they responded to Bonnie apologizing and correcting the original post well before wk's and yours.
2) their native language, being from Denmark, may not be English and the difference between "you defenders" and "defenders" is so little to generate such responses

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That doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that any time you are buying a product that is new or you are unfamiliar with that you have zero responsibility to educate yourself before purchasing? So, if you were about to purchase your first puppy, the vendor of said puppy has all the responsibility about whether or not you should be buying that puppy in the first place? That you have zero responsibility to research what breed of dog suits your personality and living situation? That you have zero responsibility to educate yourself on how to properly care for the puppy or train the puppy?

we appear to have upgraded from kittens to puppies... ;-)

There are differing consumer laws in different countries. The prior "if you weren't Scandanavian" aside, and moving past the interpretation of puppies as products,what qualifies you to judge or interpret these consumer rights or laws? Would it not be best to let this go through the system in the country where it is being interpreted and judged by experts there?

 

[MikeBur]

I take this stuff for granted and have not been very good at opening up the possibility that people many not understand just how violently a car north of 600 hp can and will accelerate over 40 mph (with enough grip). I have one car that has very wide sticky tires and yet still will break them loose over sixty mph. Allowing the car a nice straight road with good traction and letting it manage all shifts produces mind numbing acceleration over 40 mph. The Model S has absolutely no chance of comparing.

In direct answer to your question, the P85D does not if the HelloKitty has grip, is in the right gear and rolls on above 40 mph. The races you are seeing that are so impressive involve the P85D or P90DL's ability to launch incredibly well and accelerate away from launch unlike most any other car on the road. There are very few cars that can match or best their sub 1.7 second sixty foot times and this is where the Tesla has all its advantage. If the race was a 1/2 mile, you would surely understand what I am talking about.

I've said this earlier but it is worth repeating. I have not entered into the whole hp this or hp that discussion because it seems the available information is sufficiently squishy that it can be molded to fit either side's argument. What I am reasonably certain of is that Elon pitched the P85D as having 50% more _____ than the previous performance version Model S. The low speed performance was indeed much better. Tesla announced an OTA update to address higher speed performance on or about the time people started realizing the P85D was no faster than a P85 above about 40 mph. The D was just not fully cooked when shipped and the OTA update was going to complete the package. That looks to me like Elon was earnestly pitching something he ended up not being able to pull off. That is just my interpretation.

Could not agree more. It's clear TM expected much greater things over the promised OTA update and could not deliver without hw changes. The reduced price upgrade is a concession, though is this going to be a case of fool me twice? I have a dearth of data, and had to pre-order before the "few months" this is being offered expires... I still love my car, and I still love Tesla and their mission, though this has to stop lingering on.

Btw,I can't remember who was saying it, though the earlier-stated posit that those who are quiet are happy is an assumption without data. Silence is not necessarily acquiescence, it could just as easily be contemplative education ;-)

 

[rns-e]

Tesla used to advertise actual hp numbers. A few pages ago, in this message forum member rns-e explained how Tesla changed their advertisement method. I want to add another screenshot that explains this change. The change is best demonstrated when looking at S60 and S85 numbers because these two cars have the same motor. The motor is capable of producing 380 hp in a lab environment. When attached to a 60 kWh battery, it produces 302 hp. With an 85 kWh battery it produces 362 hp.

For some reason, on 10 Oct 2014 Tesla switched to displaying the theoretical hp of the motor instead what it produces when attached to the car. That kind of information belongs to the specs page. It is not relevant when comparing different models before making a purchase decision.

Moreover, Tesla did not just add the theoretical number. They also removed the actual hp number. This means, they made different models incomparable. Instead having horsepower and 0-60 times, the only data left was 0-60 time. That wasn't accurate either. The S85D used to show 5.2s.

Exactly - but somehow the people defending Tesla in these threads ignore the fact that Tesla used to display battery limited HP, and uses the term 'Motor Power' as a Harry Potter meets Fonzy spell to shift all responsibility in this case to the buyers.

Please acknowledge that had Tesla not changed the way they presented the HP number to the buyers in such a radical way, the 691gate would never have happened. Completely omitting the battery limited horsepower altogether from the website is completely the opposite of how Tesla used to describe their line up.

We have now had quite a few pages where people are debating the definition of HP, and all the time Tesla used to have a very clear and easy to understand explanation, that they removed exactly at that point where it was more relevant than ever.

 

[darthy001]

+1 to Troy and rns-e ...!

This is where i dont see a glimmer of justification for anything from Teslas side. There is only one reason to stop showing these numbers while at the same time starting using rollout on one model only without any explanation about it. Just as they clearly undersold the 85D-specs as well. 3 different tricks all making the gap between the P and the 85D seem way bigger than it is/was in reality.

Tesla went from best in class to one of the worst over night. And people here actually defend it! That is just sad!

Even worse some seriously are blaming the customers for this, and with a straight face saying we shouldnt trust the info from Tesla.

 

[Torben_E]

Tesla used to advertise actual hp numbers. ........moved the actual hp number. This means, they made different models incomparable. Instead having horsepower and 0-60 times, the only data left was 0-60 time. That wasn't accurate either. The S85D used to show 5.2s.

After the D event:

Troy.... Thank you very much for this interesting overview where the pre October 10[SUP]th[/SUP] is new to me. I have been searching high and low for a possible root cause for the confusion. A confusion that is causing some very different points of views among all of us Tesla enthusiasts.

So according to the above Tesla changed the way they communicated hp (at least on the US webpage), before and after the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of October.

I now much better understand the people that argue for the “Motor Power” point of view as you guys is rightfully comparing it vs the “Actual power” that you were familiar with in the past and that was stated before the 10[SUP]th[/SUP]. So before it was the actual power of the S60, S85 and P85 vs after where it was the motor power or in my language “motor capability”. As we know now, this is of course subject to SW, fuse, battery capacity etc.

This new way of stating power is then carried over to the D-event (I guess more or less at the same time) which reached a huge crowd and many new potential Tesla buyers, including the press big time.
I was in that later group but only by December 2014 when my daughter brought the Model S to my attention*. I wanted AWD and 85kWh so I had the choice between the 85D and the P85D. For me the €20k for the extra power was a good deal, and I did not in my wildest fantasy imagine that the difference was 46 hk (463 hk – 417 hk). I later learned that I was wrong in thinking that it was 311 hk (691 hk – 380 hk (January numbers)).
I have a number of Tesla friends in Denmark that decided to sell their S85 or P85 to get the far more powerful P85D. On the Danish webpage it never stated motor power but simply “ydeevne” which means power or “ability to perform”. Only in May/June 2015 it was changed to “motor power”.
So you can all possibly imagine that either not knowing the WEB history before October 10[SUP]th[/SUP] or having a P85 that with the D will have “50% more power” has created the situation that we are in now.

This thread will most likely continue but at least I have a much better understanding of the differences now (and the possible root cause) and why we have been disagreeing for so long.
I like to state that I agree with those who since October 10th have been using Motors Power as the right measure for the Motors Performance and my apology for not having understood that before. I also agree with those who are looking for .. lets call it Vehicle Performance (the whole combined drivetrain). Both group are right and are advocating for two different things.
I appreciate that Tesla Motors has made A) the “1-foot rollout” statement clear the 4th of September and B) the “Battery limited max power” of the vehicles on the 31st of October so that we and future Tesla buyers have a transparent basis on which they/we can make their/our decisions.

All for now

Torben_E

 

[darthy001]

@Torben_E: The D-event was on the 9th of october 2014. So the changes in the above screenshots you see here came _after_ the event.

Edit: I dont see the infamous 1/4-mile time that many are saying would show the real performance of the car here either. I only see the fake 0-60 number beside the real 0-60 numbers..