Sudden large degradation supposedly a "new algorithm"

[jaguar36]

tl;dr: Tesla first said it's "normal degradation". I threw an undignified hissy fit, then quickly apologized, but the rep did have them double check and found a mistake in their first check and indeed I have a flaw in the battery pack that they're going to address.

I'm impressed with you owning up to having a hissy fit, but its disappointing that the Service Center didn't realize this was crazy and double check it without you having to do anything. Makes it sound like this is just their normal line when someone really has a pack issue.

 

[KidDoc]

tl;dr: Tesla first said it's "normal degradation". I threw an undignified hissy fit, then quickly apologized, but the rep did have them double check and found a mistake in their first check and indeed I have a flaw in the battery pack that they're going to address.

Longer explanation:

I got a text saying the car was ready for pick up. Tesla looked at the battery while I had the car in for it's 62,500 mile maintenance (a little early, I'm at 61,500). They said the battery showed no faults and that I should understand that there will be degradation over time.

I typically make an extra effort to be nice to service folks, at any business, it's hard job, and I'm feeling a bit abashed at the moment because I completely f**cking lost it at the fellow on the phone, who was just the guy that answered when I called to ask what the outcome of the battery investigation was. The service rep handled my tantrum gracefully. I apologized, but said I want to speak to the manager because if this is normal then I have the worst "normal" degradation of any P85 owner I've ever heard of. He said he'd look into it and have someone call me, hopefully that day.

Followup 2:
Chris (the same fellow I threw the tantrum on) called me maybe 45 minutes later. He started poking into it and says that when they pulled the logs, they pulled it on the wrong car. They just pulled the logs on my car and "one of the bricks has a bad SOC" or something close to that. They're going to send the battery to remanufacture once they can source a loaner pack for me. I'll pick up the car tomorrow and drive it until a loaner pack becomes available.

I'm slightly skeptical that they really did pull the wrong log and I wonder if it was checked at all the first time around, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that. They just moved the SC a couple weeks ago and the entire staff was in Fremont for training a week or so ago, so things are really crazy at the moment as they catch up.

I'm glad to hear they admitted something was wrong but sad you had to go off on them for them to do the job they are paid to do. Very frustrating. Logs on the wrong car really?

 

[ckessel]

Was this in Portland? I know they moved a few weeks ago. The service situation in Portland has been crazy for a while now.

Yep, the Portland SC. They've always been very good to me and while it's a shame there was a mistake made looking at my logs initially, I could and should have been more diplomatic in requesting they recheck it. It all worked out and I brought them donuts of contrition when I picked up the car this morning. They'll call me back in when they've got a replacement pack.

So, I suppose my advice to some future person reading this thread, if you have degradation far beyond the norm, especially a sudden drop and they give you the "degradation is normal" line, then escalate to the shop manager and be prepared to show whatever data you can gather from these forums that shows you're way beyond normal.

Just, uh, try not to curse at them, that's probably not the best way to get someone to help you

 

[AmpedRealtor]

tl;dr: Tesla first said it's "normal degradation". I threw an undignified hissy fit, then quickly apologized, but the rep did have them double check and found a mistake in their first check and indeed I have a flaw in the battery pack that they're going to address.

Longer explanation:

I got a text saying the car was ready for pick up. Tesla looked at the battery while I had the car in for it's 62,500 mile maintenance (a little early, I'm at 61,500). They said the battery showed no faults and that I should understand that there will be degradation over time.

I typically make an extra effort to be nice to service folks, at any business, it's hard job, and I'm feeling a bit abashed at the moment because I completely f**cking lost it at the fellow on the phone, who was just the guy that answered when I called to ask what the outcome of the battery investigation was. The service rep handled my tantrum gracefully. I apologized, but said I want to speak to the manager because if this is normal then I have the worst "normal" degradation of any P85 owner I've ever heard of. He said he'd look into it and have someone call me, hopefully that day.

Followup 2:
Chris (the same fellow I threw the tantrum on) called me maybe 45 minutes later. He started poking into it and says that when they pulled the logs, they pulled it on the wrong car. They just pulled the logs on my car and "one of the bricks has a bad SOC" or something close to that. They're going to send the battery to remanufacture once they can source a loaner pack for me. I'll pick up the car tomorrow and drive it until a loaner pack becomes available.

I'm slightly skeptical that they really did pull the wrong log and I wonder if it was checked at all the first time around, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that. They just moved the SC a couple weeks ago and the entire staff was in Fremont for training a week or so ago, so things are really crazy at the moment as they catch up.

Service didn't pull logs on the wrong car, they are serving you some CYA BS to try and explain their way out of an awkward situation. Good on you for being pushy and forcing them to address the issue.

 

[apacheguy]

@ckessel - Can you take a pic of the loaner battery sticker?

 

[Mike K]

Chris (the same fellow I threw the tantrum on) called me maybe 45 minutes later. He started poking into it and says that when they pulled the logs, they pulled it on the wrong car. They just pulled the logs on my car and "one of the bricks has a bad SOC" or something close to that. They're going to send the battery to remanufacture once they can source a loaner pack for me. I'll pick up the car tomorrow and drive it until a loaner pack becomes available.

I'm slightly skeptical that they really did pull the wrong log and I wonder if it was checked at all the first time around, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that. They just moved the SC a couple weeks ago and the entire staff was in Fremont for training a week or so ago, so things are really crazy at the moment as they catch up.

Yeah, they didn't pull logs on the wrong car. They just didn't pull the logs. Anyone around these cars daily would instantly be able to identify your range as being an anomaly and would look further into it, regardless of what the logs say. Find me a P85 with under 100k that has anywhere near that kind of rated range. It doesn't exist and if it does, it too has a bad module.

At any rate, glad to hear it is getting resolved.

 

[Mike K]

Thanks for sharing. I've been charging to 90% SOC daily per the SC's recommendation. My 90% range is now up to 138RM from 130RM over a month ago. I brought my car to the SC today. I was told that my battery checked out fine, I should continue to charge to 90%, and that's that. The official word is as follows:

"Engineering evaluated this concern and concluded that this is a normal behavior of the range calculation when the battery has been charged to a lower SOC for a prolonged period of time. It is suggested that the customer charge the vehicle to 90% SOC (Daily use). We recognize the inconvenience and negative user experience associated with this incorrect and reduced range estimate, and we are developing more accurate estimation algorithms which will be pushed over the air to the car when available."

So, Tesla is saying it's my fault for charging to a lower SOC. On the plus side, the SC reps were very polite throughout this process, and a Tesla Ownership Experience rep called me to check on me and to tell me that an engineer said my degradation was normal.

@ckessel, congrats on having your battery issue addressed!

Be insistent. This is not an algorithm thing and if it is then every owner would be in here complaining of a sudden drop in rated range. As that's not happening, we know your car is an outlier. Ask them to show you a 60kwh car that they have on hand that has the same rated range (or anything even close) to your car. They can't do it because if that car existed in their fleet they would immediately mark it for service. The whole charge level story is a load of nonsense too. Yes, it can make a difference in rated range but we're talking a few miles, not a sudden drop of 50. I don't know how they're feeding you that story with a straight face.

There is no reason you should have to tolerate this.

 

[sorka]

Yeah, they didn't pull logs on the wrong car. They just didn't pull the logs. Anyone around these cars daily would instantly be able to identify your range as being an anomaly and would look further into it, regardless of what the logs say. Find me a P85 with under 100k that has anywhere near that kind of rated range. It doesn't exist and if it does, it too has a bad module.

At any rate, glad to hear it is getting resolved.

I had something similar happen. For 6 months I had really slow supercharging. I eventually noticed that the cooling louvers weren't opening up and the car sounded like a jet plain getting ready to take off even on a moderately warm day.

I took it to Fremont and their chief diagnostician, Algaire, plugged it into their limited 60KW max supercharger at the service center and said "see, it's charging normally. No errors".

I told him that it's only charging at 64KW no matter how empty the battery is and that a 60KW charger isn't going to reproduce the issue. He said since there aren't any errors on the console then there are no issues with charging.

I then asked him to check the logs to see if there was an issue with the cooling system and explained how it seemed the louvers never open any more. He came back 2 minutes later and said he'd checked the logs and found no errors.

The service manager, at that time, didn't seem convinced herself so she made me an expedited appointment for Dublin, about 15 miles away for the following Monday.

Within 5 minutes of getting to the Dublin service center, they came back to me and said there was a "louver alert" that had been in the logs for the last 6 months.

They replaced the louver and supercharging speed returned to almost normal. It's been about 8KW lower at each SOC point vs new but from what I understand that is now the new normal.

 

[TaoJones]

I had something similar happen. For 6 months I had really slow supercharging. I eventually noticed that the cooling louvers weren't opening up and the car sounded like a jet plain getting ready to take off even on a moderately warm day.

I took it to Fremont and their chief diagnostician, Algaire, plugged it into their limited 60KW max supercharger at the service center and said "see, it's charging normally. No errors".

I told him that it's only charging at 64KW no matter how empty the battery is and that a 60KW charger isn't going to reproduce the issue. He said since there aren't any errors on the console then there are no issues with charging.

I then asked him to check the logs to see if there was an issue with the cooling system and explained how it seemed the louvers never open any more. He came back 2 minutes later and said he'd checked the logs and found no errors.

The service manager, at that time, didn't seem convinced herself so she made me an expedited appointment for Dublin, about 15 miles away for the following Monday.

Within 5 minutes of getting to the Dublin service center, they came back to me and said there was a "louver alert" that had been in the logs for the last 6 months.

They replaced the louver and supercharging speed returned to almost normal. It's been about 8KW lower at each SOC point vs new but from what I understand that is now the new normal.

Congrats for staying on top of this. It's sad that misinformation is coming from people who should know better and that as a result you had to waste time with multiple visits.

As one who has also been significantly negatively-impacted by an SvC not reviewing logs in a timely manner (and another SvC then finding key information therein), I empathize.

 

[lymex2018]

So yesterday, I charged for the first time at a supercharger from 8% / 42 km rated EU/ 52 km ideal EU to 100% / 511 km rated EU / 636 km ideal and it used 91 kWh (90.5kWh according to Tesla Dashboard, so actually a little lower).

Thus, my calculated useable battery capacity is 90.5 kWh / (511-42) * 511 = 98.6 kWh and therefore it seems correct.

That's NOT the way to measure the battery capacity (whether it is a usable or full pack). Capacity is measured when discharge, not charge, and the difference is the discharge/charge efficiency which varies a lot according to the charging power. Of course the difference of true capacity (in terms of Ah) is very small, but we are talking about energy capacity here (in terms of Wh or kWh). Part of 98.6kWh is consumed by the internal resistance of the pack and makes the temperature rise and dissipated by the radiator. Therefore the correct way to measure the energy capacity is to drive the car from full to near empty, and see the energy consumption on the dash.