Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[egn1]

sorka said: ↑
So basically I've done everything wrong when it comes to lithium plating. Charge really slow for a long time for many days when the battery is freezing, regen charge on cold soaked battery, and start charging in the morning to heat the battery rather than charge at night when I first get home. Currently, with v8, I have 11 miles of range loss at nearly 100K miles. I'd expect V9 to make mine one of the highest loss examples.

You mentioned "But Tesla may not have known this up to 2 years ago". Don't you think Tesla should have acted earlier than 2 years and communicated with the owners about it?

If they had known that the situation causes batteries to take fire on parked cars in the future, I am sure that they would have taken immediate action. But it looks like they have seen something coming, probably not the fire risk, but fast degradation of some batteries, and have taken some actions to prevent fast degradation. Looking back we all know more and can blame Tesla not having done more.

It is like driving and seeing cars in front decelerate. First we hit the brake only softly, but we see the car in front coming nearer and nearer very fast. We hit the brake harder and harder, but we may be to late to make emergency braking to avoid collision.

It looks like Tesla make an emergency stop and hopes it can avoid collision.

 

[egn1]

From the post listing all the Tesla fires (8 total outside of accidents) only 2 were while charging and they were both at Superchargers. So, if the battery damage has already happened then changing the charging tactic now on batteries that are showing some level of damage may do ZERO to stop more fires.

Result of the "damage" is a battery fire. If there is no battery fire then there is no "damage".

If you read Peter Keil's dissertation you will see that lithium plating is the normal cause of battery degradation. The problem is excessive lithium plating causing damage by growing dendrites. Eventually all lithium batteries may finally unsafe. This is also the reason why in the last years more and more restrictions regarding handling used lithium batteries came into place.

 

[egn1]

Reducing the EOCV by ~130 mV is an effective way to make a disbalanced cell safe again. The charging curve (BC omitted, threshold CC/CV lowered) and thermal management got adapted too, so the problem seems to be solved for them (but not for you as you are loosing usability of your cars)!

I think your chances in a legal action aren't good, because all that happened was previsible years ago.

I don't agree here, because every buyer knew that there will be battery degradation.

Tesla didn't know in advance how large real degradation including keeping battery safe, will be in the future. Up to now their capacity calculation did only capacity degradation take into account that appears at 100 % charging to 4.2 V. It now appeared that depending on usage by the users excessive lithium plating happened, which finally can cause battery fires. Through the new measures they make this cells safe again.

As the warranty says nothing about degradation, the batteries are still working and may so safely for hundreds of thousands of miles in the future, IMHO there is just no case.

 

[sorka]

I just received this email in response to my support inquiry on June 17 (!!!)
It is clearly full of misrepresentations of facts (lies) and obfuscation of the issue (REAL loss of range)!

"Hello,

Thank you for contacting Tesla! Please allow me to apologize for the delay in our response to this email.

There are many factors involved in the actual range of your Tesla, and why you may feel that your actual range or charge capacity does not match up to the high voltage pack capacity. The battery pack is sized to provide range. Our range is carefully calculated and measured according to rigorously reviewed standards, as well as an on-board algorithm that constantly learns your driving habits and adjusts the predicted range accordingly. In contrast, a vehicle’s battery pack energy capacity varies with the rate of discharge and cell temperature.

Please note that our recent firmware updates included an update to the range estimation algorithm to be more accurate, and some customers may experience what they think is a drop in range, but this generally normalizes after a few weeks of driving. Please also note that since the range estimation is more accurate, it will better indicate the range it predicts based upon your driving habits.

If there is a concern with the range of the vehicle, we will be happy to work through this to address any issues being experienced.

To improve your range, please see these tips:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle
Drive the speed limit and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration.
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at standard air pressure.
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items.
Keep windows closed for better aerodynamic efficiency.
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range. (This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time)
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

Please visit our Support Page, which covers frequently asked questions about Tesla and your vehicle. If you have any further questions or concerns, you can reach one of our Chat Agents at Tesla.com or Customer Support 24/7 at Contact | Tesla

Best Regards,

Bryce W | Tesla Support
12832 Frontrunner Blvd., Draper, UT 84020
www.tesla.com/support

"

Really wish there was a "pissed off" button.

 

[sorka]

Damn it - just learn to drive with your windows up if you want your range back

And don't use your AC.

 

[sorka]

I don't agree here, because every buyer knew that there will be battery degradation.

Tesla didn't know in advance how large real degradation including keeping battery safe, will be in the future. Up to now their capacity calculation did only capacity degradation take into account that appears at 100 % charging to 4.2 V. It now appeared that depending on usage by the users excessive lithium plating happened, which finally can cause battery fires. Through the new measures they make this cells safe again.

As the warranty says nothing about degradation, the batteries are still working and may so safely for hundreds of thousands of miles in the future, IMHO there is just no case.

I have charged thousands of single and multi cell lithium batteries over the years with dozens of chargers. Many some of them degraded to as little as 50% of capacity before I recycled them. No single smart charger has ever not charged to the full SOC voltage regardless of the amount of degradation and not a single one of these batteries has ever caught fire or become excessively warm while charging.

 

[egn1]

This occurred following a software update that we released last month to protect the battery and improve battery longevity of Model S and X cars, and does not have any other impact to the vehicle.

This is the key statement!

To protect the battery means nothing other to make and keep the battery save.

It has nothing to do with better estimation of range, but only with preventing excessive lithium plating in the future. Of course, the side effect is the increasing lifetime.

 

[sorka]

This is the key statement!

To protect the battery means nothing other to make and keep the battery save.

It has nothing to do with better estimation of range, but only with preventing excessive lithium plating in the future. Of course, the side effect is the increasing lifetime.

Many here with 100K+ miles have had very little range loss until this update. They're fine with the natural normal degradation that was occurring. They didn't ask for addition protection and are happy with the way their battery was degrading over time.

 

[egn1]

I have charged thousands of single and multi cell lithium batteries over the years with dozens of chargers. Many some of them degraded to as little as 50% of capacity before I recycled them. No single smart charger has ever not charged to the full SOC voltage regardless of the amount of degradation and not a single one of these batteries has ever caught fire or become excessively warm while charging.

What are are thousands of battery cells charged in mostly favorite conditions against billions of battery cells charged at to high rate for battery temperature?

How often did you charge your cells at 50 F and below at 0.5C and much below?

I am sure that your "smart chargers" are far from being as smart as the Tesla BMS.

In all the fire cases there may have just one cell had an internal short causing the fire. This gives a great safety record for this battery cells together with the BMS. This is much more than the eight 9s of ASIL-D of ISO 26262 for functional safety in cars.

You should come away from thinking that there is only capacity degradation. There is also the internal resistance and the safety degradation of a lithium cell. All together has to result in a usable capacity value. Teslas operates the battery at the edge and provides usable capacity and longevity as good as possible.

Lithium batteries in consumer products have much less longevity and have to be replaced every few years not because of the natural capacity degradation, it is because a programed counter is running down, to force replacement before the cells are getting unsafe. So the cells within this battery packs are still mostly good, they stop to work.

In contrast to that Tesla tries to take the real state of the cells into account and adapts the usable capacity in order to stay in a save state. I find this the better strategy, even there may be jumps in there, because the algorithm has to be adapted from time to time.

I think we all were over excited about the longevity of the Tesla battery and the low apparent degradation through this simple range number. A few cars having hundreds of thousand of miles made us think that the batteries of all Tesla cars will make similar count of miles. But as I mentioned above, we should not only look on the average of the graph of the crowd-sourced data, but also on the data points below. IMHO they show that the longevity also highly depends on the usage.

 

[sorka]

What are are thousands of battery cells charged in mostly favorite conditions against billions of battery cells charged at to high rate for battery temperature?

How often did you charge your cells at 50 F and below at 0.5C and much below?

I am sure that your "smart chargers" are far from being as smart as the Tesla BMS.

In all the fire cases there may have just one cell had an internal short causing the fire. This gives a great safety record for this battery cells together with the BMS. This is much more than the eight 9s of ASIL-D of ISO 26262 for functional safety in cars.

You should come away from thinking that there is only capacity degradation. There is also the internal resistance and the safety degradation of a lithium cell. All together has to result in a usable capacity value. Teslas operates the battery at the edge and provides usable capacity and longevity as good as possible.

Lithium batteries in consumer products have much less longevity and have to be replaced every few years not because of the natural capacity degradation, it is because a programed counter is running down, to force replacement before the cells are getting unsafe. So the cells within this battery packs are still mostly good, they stop to work.

In contrast to that Tesla tries to take the real state of the cells into account and adapts the usable capacity in order to stay in a save state. I find this the better strategy, even there may be jumps in there, because the algorithm has to be adapted from time to time.

I think we all were over excited about the longevity of the Tesla battery and the low apparent degradation through this simple range number. A few cars having hundreds of thousand of miles made us think that the batteries of all Tesla cars will make similar count of miles. But as I mentioned above, we should not only look on the average of the graph of the crowd-sourced data, but also on the data points below. IMHO they show that the longevity also highly depends on the usage.

My point is that not one of the chargers I've owned limited SOC final voltage and I'm one of millions of hobbyists around the planet using the same types of chargers and batteries.

 

[egn1]

Many here with 100K+ miles have had very little range loss until this update. They're fine with the natural normal degradation that was occurring. They didn't ask for addition protection and are happy with the way their battery was degrading over time.

What is natural normal degradation?

The value seen in the display is an artificially calculated value by the Tesla BMS. Taking operational safety into account the calculation was just wrong so far and this has been fixed now.

 

[Juggernaut]

Too bad, so sad, buy a Model 3. I'll buy your Model S with 20 mile range for a few bucks.

And if i say to you that i see hgte same kind of config changes as well on M3 ... what will be your next suggestion. Even M3's in europe with less than 10.000 km's are showing that behaviour.

 

[Blu Zap]

What is natural normal degradation?

The value seen in the display is an artificially calculated value by the Tesla BMS. Taking operational safety into account the calculation was just wrong so far and this has been fixed now.

Uh folks. This is a falsely imposed kWh restriction on our 85kWh batteries based on a fault in the batteries. No need to debate the cause, since that really doesn't matter when we are trying to get Tesla to fess up to the truth. Let them tell us why they are putting software limitations on our BMS. That in and of itself will tell us why they need to step up to their warranty obligation and replace our 85 kWh batteries with safe ones.

 

[sorka]

What is natural normal degradation?

The value seen in the display is an artificially calculated value by the Tesla BMS. Taking operational safety into account the calculation was just wrong so far and this has been fixed now.

The new full capacity minus the remaining full capacity of a fully charged cell. My current degradation is about 4% after 95K miles miles. Many were in the same boat I am currently before taking the update. My loss of range, which is not much, is due to normal degradation. If take the update and suffer as others have, I'll lose access to existing capacity.

Name any other charger or product that contains a charger that reduces access to existing capacity by preventing full SOC voltage where it started at full capacity but lowered full SOC voltage over time. i.e. does not include products that restricted access to the full range from the start of where there are many.

And I'll state it again, since you clearly haven't really read all of the thread.

I have no problem with Tesla limiting access to existing capacity for safety reasons as long as they don't lie about it and display the truth. If they're only letting you charge to 85% then they should display 85% max. Displaying 100% when it's really 85% is a deceptive and meant to hide the truth from the consumer. They should display the actual SOC and then display a message that the charge was restricted due to safety concerns, or whatever it is.

So glad I still have v8.

 

[jaitch]

Damn it - just learn to drive with your windows up if you want your range back

And always only drive downhill.

 

[Blu Zap]

Just sent a Tweet to Elon. Better chance than an email to a Service Center!!

 

[Droschke]

Tesla didn't know in advance how large real degradation including keeping battery safe, will be in the future. Up to now their capacity calculation did only capacity degradation take into account that appears at 100 % charging to 4.2 V. It now appeared that depending on usage by the users excessive lithium plating happened, which finally can cause battery fires. Through the new measures they make this cells safe again.

You said: "Through the new measures they make this cells safe again."

How safe? Is there a guarantee that these cells under the new safety provisions won't catch fire going forward? If no, then we are back to the warranty replacement argument for the sake of safety. Don't you agree?

 

[Droschke]

Just sent a Tweet to Elon. Better chance than an email to a Service Center!!

Love to see the link, if you wish to provide.

 

[Droschke]

And always only drive downhill.

Besides being very funny, I seriously think the recipients should send this particular tip back to the Tesla support as a newly discovered trick to gain the lost range and ask Tesla to add it to their list of tips and to let other impacted owners know. Something like:

Dear Tesla Support,

Thanks for the tips. I'm happy to inform you that I've recouped my entire range by constantly driving downhill. Please feel free to close this ticket and share this additional tip with other impacted owners.

Thanks for your outstanding support.

 

[Matias]

85kWhr Model S reduced Supercharging rate reduction confirmed by TOCWA

Before and after.