Summon seems like a silly party trick to me

[PACEMD]

I spent the last two days teaching my toddler to use Smart Summon. The kid was already experienced with phone apps and for the most part did a good job, well except, if I'm being honest, there was this one dog, poor guy. Anyway, I figure the kid may as well learn to defend himself in the parking lot and what better way than his own remote Tesla. He has had his own assault rifle since age 2 but that's mostly for in-store use...........

 

[Daniel in SD]

Just an FYI. You can click on a users handle and ignore them. Please don't feed the trolls

 

[wcorey]

The steering and brakes are still directly connected, they can always be overridden by a human input. It is NOT drive by wire...yet.

Not necessarily. Yes, per a conversation around the time of the Investor Day, it was confirmed the brakes and steering are hard-wired which is why they will pull the steering wheel to convert to robo-taxi. What I meant was, as in a standard power steering/power brake cars that are also direct connect, the pumps used for steering and braking are not running unless the engine is on. So, to carry the analogy, yes in a std power steering car you can activate the brakes but you have to put your entire body weight into it to do it, ditto with steering. If you notice in the case of the ES vids, the mirrors are folded. The car appears to be off. So, would ES even work if someone was in the driver seat and the car was on? Maybe someone knows, I sure don't. And if someone in the car could override, would the ES system disable itself? Would the car just stop in the middle of the road or a driving lane between parking spots? Implicit with autonomous driving is multiple entities aren't controlling the car.

 

[EVNow]

Yes, Tesla lied. No way could they have ”expected” that given what we know of the reality.

But we did not know in 2016 that Tesla was lying.

There you go trolling again.

Didn't Musk offer $12M to develop AP in months ? Obviously didn't get the validation ....

 

[electronblue]

There you go trolling again.

Didn't Musk offer $12M to develop AP in months ? Obviously didn't get the validation ....

Nope. No trolling here.

Obviously Tesla lied in 2016 when they said EAP would come in December 2016 as a singular update pending merely validation and regulatory approval in Design Studio.

No way could they have thought that to be true at the time.

Indeed they lied for months about Smart Summon being already ”Really.” out in the same Design Studio.

If I say something is ready and I’ll deliver it to you tomorrow... and then I go and make that thing only days later and then deliver it to you... that would be a lie even if I eventually did deliver.

 

[Tam]

...
Indeed they lied for months about Smart Summon being already ”Really.” out in the same Design Studio...

Marketing is well known for saying something that might mislead people.

When it says something is free, most likely there's a footnote to prove that it is not free.

I got free water, tea, chips... in restaurants but only if I pay for an entree. It could be interpreted either way:

1) It's free because although it listed that I got water, tea, chips... but their prices were zero.

2) It's not free because the price was built-in with the entree.

Either way, it's naive to think that I can drink all the water eat all the chips for free without paying for the entree.

Same with the word "Really" here.

The sentence before that has the word "will". "Will" could be interpreted as not now and it might not have any deadline in future at all!

Also, there's a footnote at the bottom:

"The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience..."

The word "Really" is dependent on "achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers". If it doesn't achieve that then the "Really" word is off the hook.

Also:

"As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

The "Really" word refers to the word "evolve". That means the feature could be really bad if you could even finally get it and also there's a no-deadline-word "will" again.

So, like the word "free", the word "really" is also conditional which can be easily missed if people just stopped reading after that word and forgot to continue to read on.

 

[electronblue]

@Tam

Oh I do get it that people want to explain some lies away as just misleading marketing, but they are still lies.

I mean. Really. With a list of features where one part are ”Coming later this year: ...” and another without such a disclaimer listing current features and Smart Summon, one is supposed to realize Smart Summon is actually meant to be in the ”Coming later this year” list yet somehow is in the list with current features... I would say the reasonable average reader would have read that particular ”will” as referring to the functionality of the current feature, not the timeline to the feature’s appearance.

Indeed, Tesla has now actually moved that bullet to the second list in some international markets like Germany. Funny that, they stopped lying about this suddenly once the feature was shipped in the U.S.?

 

[totteraptor]

I have a beautiful, bubbly, happy 14-month old toddler who walks better than some 2 year olds. I watch all these Smart Summon videos with rednecks literally saying "I dunno, I dunno, I can't see it from this angle, I think it's gonna come around the long way."

I think about the very real possibility that one day, some goddamn zombie Tesla, "piloted" by someone I can't even see, is going to turn a corner and hit my child. They won't even know it happened, and will just keep holding that button down with their fat thumb.

This is going to happen to someone, probably very soon.

There is evidence all over TMC that the cars can't properly detect curbs, trash cans, garage walls, grass, reversing vehicle, stop signs, parking space lines, or semi trucks. I have literally zero faith that they can detect prone toddlers.

In Europe the distance of Summon has very wisely been limited by regulators to

I have a beautiful, bubbly, happy 14-month old toddler who walks better than some 2 year olds. I watch all these Smart Summon videos with rednecks literally saying "I dunno, I dunno, I can't see it from this angle, I think it's gonna come around the long way."

I think about the very real possibility that one day, some goddamn zombie Tesla, "piloted" by someone I can't even see, is going to turn a corner and hit my child. They won't even know it happened, and will just keep holding that button down with their fat thumb.

This is going to happen to someone, probably very soon.

There is evidence all over TMC that the cars can't properly detect curbs, trash cans, garage walls, grass, reversing vehicle, stop signs, parking space lines, or semi trucks. I have literally zero faith that they can detect prone toddlers.

European regulators have banned use of remote steering (like summon) exceeding 6 meters. I generally dont like bans but in this case it seems warranted when a Company decides to release a halfbaked system to drive cars around in parking lots with children. Peoples curiosity to push the limits of the system will inevitably lead to some tragic circumstances.

 

[wcorey]

Nope. No trolling here.

Obviously Tesla lied in 2016 when they said EAP would come in December 2016 as a singular update pending merely validation and regulatory approval in Design Studio.

No way could they have thought that to be true at the time.

Indeed they lied for months about Smart Summon being already ”Really.” out in the same Design Studio.

If I say something is ready and I’ll deliver it to you tomorrow... and then I go and make that thing only days later and then deliver it to you... that would be a lie even if I eventually did deliver.

This gets into tricky territory. I'd say the implication by Musk's comment and answer to one of the last questions of Investor Day that end of year Level 5 FSD would be 'feature complete' and next year would usher in the RoboTaxi fleet was a bold-faced lie save the weasel words of 'feature complete'. However the Tesla Network of Robotaxis in 2020 I feel is clearly a known falsehood at the time Musk promised it.

I think Enhanced summons being released when it was was a foolish move. He'd have been better off, I suspect, releasing a beta (full driver participation) of NoA City edition. Can it read street signs? Can it navigate turns? Can it pass dbl parked cars, can it recognize a stop light, a yield sign, an amber exit speed sign? ES is truly autonomous driving without so much as a human in the car. Maybe the issue is the cars lack the processing speed to make the requisite real time decisions.

 

[wcorey]

Peoples curiosity to push the limits of the system will inevitably lead to some tragic circumstances.

As I've said, that should have been the last feature they released. FSD, aka NoACity still, due to it's beta requirement to have a human in the driver seat has someone overseeing the actions of the car under software control. Virtually, by definition, no one is in the car to 'correct' wrong moves with ES.

 

[turnem]

Sheesh. Some folks appear to walk the earth with the sole intention of seeking out ways/reasons to get butt-hurt.

Just enjoy what we have and try to be positive folks. Otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy!

 

[electronblue]

This gets into tricky territory. I'd say the implication by Musk's comment and answer to one of the last questions of Investor Day that end of year Level 5 FSD would be 'feature complete' and next year would usher in the RoboTaxi fleet was a bold-faced lie save the weasel words of 'feature complete'. However the Tesla Network of Robotaxis in 2020 I feel is clearly a known falsehood at the time Musk promised it.

It may have been a lie or it may be true, we don’t know yet since we don’t have sufficient insight into Tesla’s internal status. I do agree it is possible the Autonomy Investor Day ”Level 5 no geofence” feature complete at end of 2019 was not a truthful representation of their status and trajectory but we don’t know.

It is easier to decipher the past Design Studio lies: It is obvious Smart Summon was not out even though it was advetised there as a current feature earlier this year so that is clearly something where Tesla lied. Also in 2016 Tesla saying Enhanced Autopilot would come as a (singular) update in December 2016 pending merely validation and regulatory approval was obviously a lie from what we have become to know since of the status of the project. But we did not know it was a lie back in 2016, although in some other forums Tesla seems to have promised AP1 parity in the same timeframe, which would also have been a lie, though a different one. (Of course AP1 parity is still not fully here today given speed sign recognition, but in no way was any kind of parity ready around end of year 2016.)

Sheesh. Some folks appear to walk the earth with the sole intention of seeking out ways/reasons to get butt-hurt.

Just enjoy what we have and try to be positive folks. Otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy!

...and this is why Tesla gets away with such misleading marketing.

What I struggle with is why Tesla feels the need to do this. AP2/3 and their car would be an interesting and inviting product even without all the misleading stuff. Some might argue they might be more inviting products were it so...

I mean: What if in 2016 Tesla had just announced the AP2 suite without any forward-looking statements except saying they will keep on adding new features... Now that would have been under-promising and over-delivering and we’d be having a completely different conversation today.

 

[Kiwiadventure]

Enjoy your Tesla and work with the new Beta way of driving. If you done like it sell and move on to a boring ICE vehicle or a Toyota.

 

[electronblue]

Enjoy your Tesla and work with the new Beta way of driving. If you done like it sell and move on to a boring ICE vehicle or a Toyota.

Here’s a thought: Why not enjoy the Tesla (or not, as the case may be) and also do your best to keep Tesla honest. Mmm?

 

[Kiwiadventure]

Here’s a thought: Why not enjoy the Tesla (or not, as the case may be) and also do your best to keep Tesla honest. Mmm?

"Keeping Tesla honest" is that a joke or are you really living in a world of make believe.

 

[electronblue]

"Keeping Tesla honest" is that a joke or are you really living in a world of make believe.

Well, you may be onto something: it may be a bridge too far.

 

[wcorey]

since we don’t have sufficient insight into Tesla’s internal status.

I was under the impression you actually did by way of deep diving into software delivered but disabled.

 

[wcorey]

Now that would have been under-promising and over-delivering and we’d be having a completely different conversation today.

And that is precisely the position most, at least software, companies strive to be in. The issue is generally an over-zealous marketing dept. But for the <Chairman> CEO of a company to knowingly lie. I could be wrong but I'll call it a deliberate falsehood. He likely would have been fine but for the "Yes, level 5". I mean, as of Sept/Oct at 1 MPH the car augers into a cement lane side. Given how long 200+ employees have been testing FSD in their private vehicles they've got to be somewhere down the path to it working. We've seen the 2019 video but I wouldn't call what we've seen of navigating a parking lot remotely close to level 5.

 

[alsetym]

6 million accidents occur per year in the US
1/5 of all the accidents happen in parking lots so that's 1.2 million accidents occurring in parking lots.
The average household takes 9.5 trips a day where 82 percent of them are vehicle trips. So that's about 2843 car trips per year per US household.
There are 127.59 million households in the US so that's 362,738,370,000 trips per year.

So on average a parking lot accident happens once every 302,282 trips (approx)

The trickiest part of any kind of AV calculation is you have to determine how much safer it should be.

I would employ a sliding scale that was more okay with accidents/mishaps during the start than at a later date.

I would say an average summons probably covers about 1/4" of a parking lot trip. There is no self park, and you still have to drive out of the parking lot from where it picked you up.

So we're talking an allowance of maybe 1 accident per 1.2 million summon events to be on par with humans.

Now not every summon event is successful as sometimes it stops for apparently no reasons. In my testing its around half of the time. So that 1.2 million is more like 2.4 million.

Basically I'd like to see Smart Summon reach about 2.5 million or so without any accident.

I don't see that happening, but you never know.

I love that Tesla is now in the insurance game so they're going to be directly plugged into actual claims. So we shall see what becomes of that. Would be funny if it got shut down only for Tesla insurance folks. Like "Lower your insurance rate by giving up Smart Summon!!"

So how many attempts are we up to at this point? Anyone seen #s?