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Wiki Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

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Thanks for the link. Regrading horizontal vs vertical orientation capability: In operation, the booster would usually have most forces in the long axis, so a horizontal orientation would be atypical. However, what is the penalty factor for horizontal self support? F9 does that currently. That may be part of their longitudinal hat stringer, non-balloon, structure design. For Starship, if reentry is belly first and > 1G then wouldn't the only issue be having sufficient contact points for horizontal support?

To do pure vertical assembly and service long term, it seems like they would need to build their own VAB. Except even larger than the original due to re-use of the system (requiring storage of more copies).

F9 has to be able to support itself horizontally for effective road transport. Starship and Super Heavy will never be road-transported - they're too large. Any transport that they don't do on their own power (which should be considered the modus operandi...e.g. airplanes take themselves to airports and in for service under their own power) would have to be by sea. And while it'd likely be easier to mount the rocket horizontally, it certainly could be transported vertically as well - even without any cargo, a Maersk Triple E stands higher than a Super Heavy, for example. And SpaceX already will be designing barges specifically for it to land on, as with Falcon 9.

That said, it's a good question as to what structural requirements reentry impose on Super Heavy and Starship. But it's important to remember that during flight, these vehicles are pressure-supported, so it's not a simple question of "Are entry forces greater than 1G?" SpaceX has long since made it a decision to not require pressurization for surface transport (balloon tanks) due to the difficulties and costs such an approach imposes.

Huge VABs are uneconomical for building large ships or containing refineries, and given how cheap Musk wants Starship/Super Heavy to be, one shouldn't expect VABs for them either - especially given that stainless is far more weather tolerant than alumium. And we've already seen SpaceX building their test rockets outdoors, and apparently they think that's going to work just fine. So I just don't see VABs in their future.

But that's just my take. :)
 
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And we've already seen SpaceX building their test rockets outdoors, and apparently they think that's going to work just fine. So I just don't see VABs in their future.
It would be so cool if we can watch in real-time the construction of the real (not just the hoppers) FSH/Starships out in the open!

I want a 24/7 “Starship cam”. :cool:
 
News from Elon!
EB73ADE1-6B84-4C96-AE97-06B7B3822726.jpeg


Love the way he has modified his twitter avatar. :p
 
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Yes, Elon is saying that the “Hopper” is the “orbital Starship vehicle”. Hard to imagine how that vehicle is going to reach orbit and then re-enter and land. If that is what he is implying.
View attachment 387514

No, you're misunderstanding. He's talking about what people were interpreting as a new, replacement fairing under construction. This. It's not a fairing, it's a whole new Starship - this time, intended for orbital flight. There will be no fairing for the current hopper.
 
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No, you're misunderstanding. He's talking about what people were interpreting as a new, replacement fairing under construction. This. It's not a fairing, it's a whole new Starship - this time, intended for orbital flight. There will be no fairing for the current hopper.
I was definitely misunderstanding and confused. :rolleyes: But now I get it! So cool. Incredible to think that the first Starship that will reach orbit is being built in that tent, right now.
 
I was definitely misunderstanding and confused. :rolleyes: But now I get it! So cool. Incredible to think that the first Starship that will reach orbit is being built in that tent, right now.

Parts in the tent, but most outdoors! :)

This revelation just showed that SpaceX is even further along on BFR than most people expected. This is so amazing.

I also loved Musk's comments about the heat shield. Basically, that the film cooling is on top of the hexagonal heat tiles, so if the film cooling fails, the tiles will be damaged and need refurbishment, but won't destroy the craft. The film cooling is just to allow reuse without refurbishment, and only on the parts of the craft that have the most extreme heat loads. That's a great route to take, since film cooling for reentry is a never-before tested technology, and there are some concerns about its reliability (for example, pore clogging due to dust or freezing).
 
...the film cooling is on top of the hexagonal heat tiles, so if the film cooling fails, the tiles will be damaged and need refurbishment, but won't destroy the craft.
I didn’t see that specifically in any of his tweets today. Maybe I missed it. Having a hard time understanding how the transpiration cooling system could be placed on top of the tiles, but what do I know... o_O
 
I didn’t see that specifically in any of his tweets today. Maybe I missed it. Having a hard time understanding how the transpiration cooling system could be placed on top of the tiles, but what do I know... o_O

"Transpiration cooling will be added wherever we see erosion of the shield". This implies:
  • Reentry works - but erodes the shield - if they don't have transpiration cooling.
  • Transpiration cooling is "added" - not instead of - the shield.
Transpiration cooling is through tiny holes, meaning the coolant holes would be through the hexagonal titles.

I could be misinterpreting this, of course, but that's how I read it. And it IMHO makes a ton of sense.
 
"Transpiration cooling will be added wherever we see erosion of the shield". This implies:
  • Reentry works - but erodes the shield - if they don't have transpiration cooling.
  • Transpiration cooling is "added" - not instead of - the shield.
Transpiration cooling is through tiny holes, meaning the coolant holes would be through the hexagonal titles.

I could be misinterpreting this, of course, but that's how I read it. And it IMHO makes a ton of sense.
Perhaps fed through the gaps?
 
I also have zero experience, obviously, but that would be my guess as well; the transpiration channels/pores will be closely spaced, maybe centimeters apart.

That is what I envisioned when Elon spoke of a double hulled stainless steel hot side.

Just having trouble figuring out how they
  • align the tiles with the coolant source in the skin
  • Bond the tiles to the skin without blocking those channels
  • Maintain tile strength while perforated it
Unless the tiles themselves are medium density sintered affair where it more of a wicking action than tubular pores. Or the pre fired tile is extruded with the channels concentrated in a ring, then they bond the outer edge and possibly center to the skin with a few openings in the middle for flow.

Or...
Perhaps the transpirational layer is still in the skin layer under the tiles. So tiles block/ absorb most of the heat and sit on risers so the outer skin can also be cooled by methane flow only where needed. Heated methane vents out between the tile edges.