It has to be secondary battery swapping. With all the patents they have been issued in the last few months regarding using metal air batteries in conjunction with lithium ion batteries that has to be it. Like a range extender where the metal air battery is used to charge your lithium ion battery while your driving. So all you do is pull into the swap station, they open your frunk, swap the metal air battery, and you're off. No complex machinery or mechanical removal of the existing lithium ion battery required. That's what I think it's going to be.
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Supercharger Announcement 2013/05/30
- Thread starter radinator
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- Tesla Inc.
fengshui
Member
True, but I think that if they were going to involve battery-swap as a solution for long-distance travel, they'd want to do it at the Supercharger locations. Elon clearly thinks of battery swap as something other than supercharging. If they have a battery swap announcement planned, I can't see it targeting the long-distance travel problem. It's got to be for some other need.
Hi! I'm new to this forum and I think I have the best name on this entire forum... 
Anyway I joined because I want to add a question to your supercharger questions. I'm thinking of buying a model s, but I just can't unitl I have this question answered:
I wanted to know how it is possible that tesla can offer free supercharger stations. The 2000 USD fee required covers only 125 charges, way less than an average costumer will charge over the years. (80kwh*0,20c/kwh)=16 USD per charge 2000/16=125 charges. In europe electricity costs 0,40c/kwh, resulting in only 62,5 chrges. So will this seal tesla's bankrupcy in a few years?
Every supercharger draws 90KW, so assuming there are 2000 Superchargers all over the US, we will constantly draw 180MW of power (full utilization). So we will need at least twice of this power to cover day AND night. Thats a 360MW plant. Plus margin we need when its rainy: 400MW. Good luck with solar power: 3$ per watt costs a PV plant at least! Thats 1.2 to 1.5 BILLION to cover the electricity needs! Sorry guys...but it seems this concept just doesnt work out. Maybe earn money by shorting the shares?
Anyway I joined because I want to add a question to your supercharger questions. I'm thinking of buying a model s, but I just can't unitl I have this question answered:I wanted to know how it is possible that tesla can offer free supercharger stations. The 2000 USD fee required covers only 125 charges, way less than an average costumer will charge over the years. (80kwh*0,20c/kwh)=16 USD per charge 2000/16=125 charges. In europe electricity costs 0,40c/kwh, resulting in only 62,5 chrges. So will this seal tesla's bankrupcy in a few years?
Every supercharger draws 90KW, so assuming there are 2000 Superchargers all over the US, we will constantly draw 180MW of power (full utilization). So we will need at least twice of this power to cover day AND night. Thats a 360MW plant. Plus margin we need when its rainy: 400MW. Good luck with solar power: 3$ per watt costs a PV plant at least! Thats 1.2 to 1.5 BILLION to cover the electricity needs! Sorry guys...but it seems this concept just doesnt work out. Maybe earn money by shorting the shares?
I think 125 is more times than most cars will supercharge. Over 8 years, that would be about 16 supercharges per year. Most charging is done at home, not at superchargers.
Hi! I'm new to this forum and I think I have the best name on this entire forum...
I wanted to know how it is possible that tesla can offer free supercharger stations. The 2000 USD fee required covers only 125 charges, way less than an average costumer will charge over the years. (80kwh*0,20c/kwh)=16 USD per charge 2000/16=125 charges. In europe electricity costs 0,40c/kwh, resulting in only 62,5 chrges. So will this seal tesla's bankrupcy in a few years?
Every supercharger draws 90KW, so assuming there are 2000 Superchargers all over the US, we will constantly draw 180MW of power (full utilization). So we will need at least twice of this power to cover day AND night. Thats a 360MW plant. Plus margin we need when its rainy: 400MW. Good luck with solar power: 3$ per watt costs a PV plant at least! Thats 1.2 to 1.5 BILLION to cover the electricity needs! Sorry guys...but it seems this concept just doesnt work out. Maybe earn money by shorting the shares?
Two part answer:
1) In the short term, money to install and operate Superchargers comes out of the Marketing budget.
2) In the long term, solar PV on all SC's will generate more electricity than the system uses; they'll sell the excess back to the grid.
@Brianman: Thanks for the great, quick transcript!
@spacex: yes, great handle. Surprised it was available ok, not every station will be used at every moment for all hours of the day/night. Plus, some, if not eventually all, the power will be sun supplied, so the unit cost will be nothing, after the install costs.
@spacex: yes, great handle. Surprised it was available
ok, not every station will be used at every moment for all hours of the day/night. Plus, some, if not eventually all, the power will be sun supplied, so the unit cost will be nothing, after the install costs.I'll be absolutely stunned if the average SC's per year per vehicle is greater than single digits. Tesla can also benefit by selling solar power when rates are high and drawing when it's low.
sorry, but all answers are dissatisfying. I personally would charge all the time free here in europe. Electricity is VERY expensive. and once these new model s will be sold used, just like s class mercedes, people will want to save money. In the long term, they are bankrupt.
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there is no car manifacturer who offeres free gasoline, forever. This just seems nonesense to me or it is all a scam.
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there is no car manifacturer who offeres free gasoline, forever. This just seems nonesense to me or it is all a scam.
FredTMC
Model S VIN #4925
SCs are strategically placed OUTSIDE of major population centers. Along popular travel routes.
The $2,000 upgrade fee is for the hardware in your car, not necessarily the entire cost of the supercharging - at the moment, they don't have a marketing budget of any real sort, so put this cost into the marketing column.
There are many places in the U.S. where the cost is far lower than that. We pay $0.11/kWH in VA, for instance. For EV's at night, the rate is $0.06/kWH. For large scale commercial, it is possible to gain some lower rates too. Further, Tesla is putting in solar and on-site batteries. There is a benefit to the utility to have grid stabilization - matter of fact, in our area, the utility will pay for a generator at your site if you agree to it and they can control when you switch to the on-site generator. So Tesla can have on-going credit as a grid stabilizer.
It is highly unlikely to have 100% utilization 24/7 on each and every 10-12 stall site. It is likely that a single charger is 240kWH and handles 4 stalls, so there's really 480-720kWH per site. Further, the rate tails off as the car gets fully charged. Probably half utilization as a result. So they then put in enough solar to cover the energy expenditure (250+% during day to cover the night), which is basically buying the 25-30 years of electricity. So $300,000 per station covers the station + electricity for 25-30 years.
I say spot on to metal-air announcement, for reasons exhaustively argued already on this forum - patents, speed, the proof-of-concept shown by Phinergy, etc. Assuming this will be the June 20 announcement, my main question then is what it's relationship will be to the superchargers, if any. Given the commitment to supercharging, it seems clear that if it is a metal-air range extender, Tesla does't see it as a final solution to range anxiety and/or it will always be complimentary to supercharging, not replacing it in terms of ease/convenience/cost. The suggestion in the quarterly report is that it would require one or more attendants/technicians - not the ideal solution, but could be accomplished at service centers and/or dealerships.
"you are wrong"
I mean that's always the response that I get. I'm looking for a meaningful answer. But I quess Tesla will know it better than I do.
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"It is highly unlikely to have 100% utilization 24/7 on each and every 10-12 stall site. It is likely that a single charger is 240kWH and handles 4 stalls, so there's really 480-720kWH per site. Further, the rate tails off as the car gets fully charged. Probably half utilization as a result. So they then put in enough solar to cover the energy expenditure (250+% during day to cover the night), which is basically buying the 25-30 years of electricity. So $300,000 per station covers the station + electricity for 25-30 years."
I hope you are right. But I hope some of you understand my concern.
I mean that's always the response that I get. I'm looking for a meaningful answer. But I quess Tesla will know it better than I do.
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"It is highly unlikely to have 100% utilization 24/7 on each and every 10-12 stall site. It is likely that a single charger is 240kWH and handles 4 stalls, so there's really 480-720kWH per site. Further, the rate tails off as the car gets fully charged. Probably half utilization as a result. So they then put in enough solar to cover the energy expenditure (250+% during day to cover the night), which is basically buying the 25-30 years of electricity. So $300,000 per station covers the station + electricity for 25-30 years."
I hope you are right. But I hope some of you understand my concern.
If you live 50 miles or more from a major city, and if you happen to live next to the one major highway in the area, and if you happen to live near the one rest-stop or shopping mall that Tesla chose for its Supercharger, then, yes, you could charge there every day. Otherwise you would be out of luck.
You will not be able to charge every day at the Superchargers because they will be too far away and too inconvenient.
You will not be able to charge every day at the Superchargers because they will be too far away and too inconvenient.
Yuri_G
Member
People use their houses to charge their car because that is where the car spends most of its time when not on the road. No one is going to charge at a supercharger daily because you won't live close enough to want to charge daily, and it isn't necessary given the battery pack size of the Model S. Much more convenient to charge at home and have to pay for the electricity compared to driving 50-100 miles just to charge at a supercharger.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
@spacex, please wait till you see superchargers in Europe and their utilization patterns. Here, in Calif., I live about 50 miles from the nearest SC (in Gilroy) and I haven't yet been to it! It's rather silly to go out of the way (putting miles on the car and wasting time) just to get free juice (even if it's expensive otherwise).
The SCs are really meant for roadtrips and are located accordingly. Most Model S owners will be quite content charging at home/work etc. and will rarely use an SC (if ever) so, the utilization cost is not going to be a problem at all.
@brianman, thanks for the transcript. Thank goodness that Tesla isn't going down the battery swap rabbit hole (IMO). Strength in (SC) numbers is good enough; given the upcoming density of both stations and ports, I'd just go charging in short bursts as needed when on a road trip rather than juice up to full at fewer stops.
callmesam
Member
Each Supercharger has 1/2 MW of Tesla batteries as backup. Tesla sells this battery backup capacity to the GRID. The grid LOVES battery backup since they don't have to buy power at spot prices AND will pay companies to install and operate battery backups for them.
The solar chargers also benefit from time of use. So the solar panels feed the grid (not the batteries) and the GRID pays $.15/kWh to Tesla and then Tesla buys power to charge the battery backup for $.04kWh.
To answer your other concern, Superchargers are being put "out of the way" from where there are large populations. In rural areas between large cities. You might have to drive 50 Miles to recharge. Possible but not likely.
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