Supercharger price hikes: what's your opinion?

[Interferon]

You realize that many homes in cities with some of the most expensive real estate in the country likes NYC, SanFrancisco, etc don’t have garages and home charging.

Yep, that's why I used the word 'most' not 'all'. Averaged over all s/x owners, most live in single family houses.

So you think Tesla should only sell to people who live in subdivisions?

I never said anything remotely similar to that.

I AM saying that they should use a market-driven Supercharger price to keep wait times at a minimum, earn capital to expand the network, and incentivize customers to try to get destination chargers set up at their home or work.

 

[Interferon]

When I purchased my 2016 Model S I was told by EVERY Tesla employee that supercharges would NOT be a profit center but Tesla would only charge to cover their costs (when they started charging to use the superchargers). Included in the cost the car was funds to support the build out of the supercharger network. Charging the customers 200+% of the actual local electrical costs is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Tesla actually purchases electricity cheaper than a home owners as the can get a lower bulk commercial rate. BAD Tesla, BAD, BAD, BAD.

Found the socialist.

If Tesla doesn't charge market rates, they will eventually go out of business. Then no one gets Superchargers at any price.

 

[Interferon]

Supply and Demand is no longer a Law of economics, as there are no truly free markets. And even pretending for one second that Tesla has relation to either is ludicrous.

[Citation needed]

 

[islandchick]

common sense + google machine

 

[cpa]

Here is PG&E's electric tariff effective Jan. 1.

Pacific Gas & Electric - Tariffs

I am not sure which plan Tesla pays for its northern California Superchargers--perhaps you all can figure it out. Anyway, it appears that the demand charge could be as high as $19.00+ per kW, per month. So, if my math is correct: A twelve-station Supercharger has six pairs that each can draw 120kW. (120kW)(19)(6) = $13,680 in demand charges per month plus electricity?

If we factor this across all SC in PG&E territory (likely close to fifty locations), we might get an idea as to how much Tesla has to pay each month if we can use the Supercharging screen posted at Kettleman City to make some giant assumptions about the quantity of kWh delivered to our cars. Likely this will be a staggering amount--and this is just PG&E. It is not SMUD, Edison, SDG&E, plus the outliers in Siskiyou, Del Norte, Nevada, and Imperial Counties with other power providers.

I just read in another thread that the St. George UT Supercharger was vandalized by using a drill to ream out the contacts in some of the plugs. Now Tesla has to expedite the technician to repair and replace the damaged equipment.

I find it odd that some are outraged at the fee assessed by Tesla. Yet we all are willing to overpay for other niceties and conveniences in life.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

We are in the middle of a 1200+ mile roadtrip to the Detroit Auto Show and back. Visited 5 superchargers so far in PA and OH. At every SC we were the only car charging.

Just used a level 2 charger in a parking garage in Detroit across from our hotel. The charging stations were mostly empty except for a model 3 and a Leaf, not ICE'd either.

There was a 3 charging at the SC in Mt. Gilead, OH but it left as we arrived. I don't think waiting to SC is the norm outside of CA. I've never had to wait to supercharge except once at a mall on a Saturday outside of Princeton, NJ, and that was only for 5 minutes.

There are a whole slew of EVs and hybrids coming out, Kia, Nissan, etc. and many of them are very reasonably priced ~25K with good range, 200 miles+. Really the main advantage Tesla has is its supercharging network.

Don't see the point of making people pay at all these empty superchargers. Tesla should charge only if the demand is high like in CA. In other places, it only discourages people from buying Teslas.

And yes, we have free unlimited supercharging as long as we own our car.

 

[ucmndd]

Don't see the point of making people pay at all these empty superchargers. Tesla should charge only if the demand is high like in CA. In other places, it only discourages people from buying Teslas.

I’m not sure I get the logic behind “ gas stations that aren’t busy should just be free”.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Yep, that's why I used the word 'most' not 'all'. Averaged over all s/x owners, most live in single family houses.


I never said anything remotely similar to that.

I AM saying that they should use a market-driven Supercharger price to keep wait times at a minimum, earn capital to expand the network, and incentivize customers to try to get destination chargers set up at their home or work.

The model to sell to more urban dwellers is for Tesla to build more superchargers and/or urban chargers in cities. I live in a single family house but don't have a garage like most of my neighbors. Like most of my neighbors, I own a car but walk to work which is less than a mile, some take public transportation. There is no incentive to put in destination chargers at work. Many employers discourage driving due to congestion and lack of parking. Telework and metro/public transportation are the main options not driving... walking, electric scooters and biking too.

DC does not have any superchargers unlike NYC, Philly, Boston, Baltimore, etc. Nevertheless, I have never had to wait for supercharging in the 'burbs either... but I don't go on Saturday afternoons... and I use my car and supercharging mainly for road trips. If I didn't go on roadtrips, I'll need to charge my car about once a month if that: DC's not that big, I mostly drive around a 7 mile radius and I don't drive everyday.

I’m not sure I get the logic behind “ gas stations that aren’t busy should just be free”.

Your logic for charging is that it will help with congestion and waiting. For the rest of the country outside CA, waiting to supercharge is not an issue.

If I lived in CA, I wouldn't buy a Tesla after hearing all the stories about waits to SC even if I had home charging. If Tesla wants to sell more cars in CA, I agree with you, they need to do something about the waits.

 

[ucmndd]

Your logic for charging is that it will help with congestion and waiting. For the rest of the country outside CA, waiting to supercharge is not an issue.

No, my logic for charging is that it costs money to provide and Tesla is not a charity. They should charge at least what it costs to deliver energy and build/maintain the network. I'm not convinced, even with the recent price hikes, we have hit that mark yet.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

No, my logic for charging is that it costs money to provide and Tesla is not a charity. They should charge at least what it costs to deliver energy and build/maintain the network. I'm not convinced, even with the recent price hikes, we have hit that mark yet.

So they can hike up their charging prices all over the country even in places where there are so few Tesla's that even charging for SC will never allow them to break even. It won't help them sell their cars that's for sure and the other car makers are coming...

 

[ucmndd]

So they can hike up their charging prices all over the country even in places where there are so few Tesla's that even charging for SC will never allow them to break even. It won't help them sell their cars that's for sure and the other car makers are coming...

Again, just don't see the connection. It costs money to provide electricity. It costs even more, on a unit basis, in the sorts of areas you describe. There's a gas station here in Big Sur, CA, midway up the coast in a very remote area that famously sells gas north of $6 a gallon. Why? Because your choice is either pay it or suck eggs. No other game in town. Same with the Supercharger network. I'd gladly pay extra money to utilize a remote supercharger that made a previously impossible trip possible - not expect it to be free.

Yes, other EVs are coming. You can bet your bacon none of them are going to come with free charging.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Again, just don't see the connection. It costs money to provide electricity. It costs even more, on a unit basis, in the sorts of areas you describe. There's a gas station here in Big Sur, CA, midway up the coast in a very remote area that famously sells gas north of $6 a gallon. Why? Because your choice is either pay it or suck eggs. No other game in town. Same with the Supercharger network. I'd gladly pay extra money to utilize a remote supercharger that made a previously impossible trip possible - not expect it to be free.

Yes, other EVs are coming. You can bet your bacon none of them are going to come with free charging.

The other EVs costs around 25K without free charging. I was impressed with the Kia Niro and Nissan Leaf especially.

There were 3 gas stations near the Mt. Gilead supercharging station all selling at 1.95 a gallon. I wonder how much the Mt. Gilead SC in the middle of nowhere will have to charge for the electricity and to "support the infrastructure" with so few customers... Not sure why someone would even consider a Tesla over an ICE in Ohio.

 

[dgpcolorado]

... Not sure why someone would even consider a Tesla over an ICE in Ohio.

·A Tesla is more fun to drive than other cars?

·It doesn't use gas and can be filled up at home?

·It can be powered with solar panels?

·Unlike other EVs, a Tesla can easily be driven on thousand mile road trips or all the way across the country?

There are a number of reasons someone might choose a Tesla over another car, even in a time of low gas prices. If the cars can't fit everyone, so what? It was never the goal to have everyone drive a Tesla. Rather, it was to show that EVs could be fun (powerful), beautiful (not dorky) and practical to drive long distances (fast charging). I'd say that has been accomplished; now we wait and see how things shake out over the long term.

 

[Zooomer]

Here is PG&E's electric tariff effective Jan. 1.

Pacific Gas & Electric - Tariffs

I am not sure which plan Tesla pays for its northern California Superchargers--perhaps you all can figure it out. Anyway, it appears that the demand charge could be as high as $19.00+ per kW, per month. So, if my math is correct: A twelve-station Supercharger has six pairs that each can draw 120kW. (120kW)(19)(6) = $13,680 in demand charges per month plus electricity?

The demand charge is being vastly over stated in this thread by a few. Tesla installs powerwalls in areas with high demand. To believe they pay $13,680/mo instead of installing a couple battery packs is short sighted.

Do tell us more about your expert insight into the cost of running the supercharger network.

/WonkaMeme

Pretty easy to calculate that with a .15 profit per KW and a car drawing 100KW, Tesla is profiting $15/hr per stall while in near peak use.
So take a busy SC with 8 stalls averaging 50KW you have 400KW/hr x 18hrs use or $1080 per day. 30 grand per month. The land is free (per their use agreements). Even Willy Wonka can speculate that it does not cost 30 grand per month to maintain an unmanned SC location.

Found the socialist.

If Tesla doesn't charge market rates, they will eventually go out of business. Then no one gets Superchargers at any price.

It doesn't make you a socialist to want what a company promised. This forum and Tesla owners in general are ridiculous in their shameless defenses of Tesla at times.

By your logic Elon can start charging monthly for data and software updates. You would then defend Tesla against people pissed by saying 'nothing is free, if we don't pay how will we get updates!' It's not unreasonable to hold people accountable to what they promise or say. Even the holy himself Elon. If Tesla said the SC network will never be a profit center and sells you a car based on that, then jacks up prices, it's deceptive shady business tactics. I'm still salty I paid for full self driving and people leased cars paying for it and never received what they paid for. People then respond with 'he's keeping us safe by fully testing it'. Bullshit. If that's true, refund people rather than wait for a class action and test your software all you want. If you make a sale to a customer by leading them to believe something and then not delivering, you have essentially stolen from them.

 

[Zooomer]

The other EVs costs around 25K without free charging. I was impressed with the Kia Niro and Nissan Leaf especially.

There were 3 gas stations near the Mt. Gilead supercharging station all selling at 1.95 a gallon. I wonder how much the Mt. Gilead SC in the middle of nowhere will have to charge for the electricity and to "support the infrastructure" with so few customers... Not sure why someone would even consider a Tesla over an ICE in Ohio.

I own many vehicles and they are nice, some faster than my p100d. They have all kinds of things better than TEsla. quieter, better stereo, cooled seats that work, better stereo, better seats, TV screens, more room, etc.

But overall the Tesla is just a better car.
-It has autopilot. I won't take a road trip in anything else because driving sucks. The Tesla cannot be matched in this regard.
-TEsla's NAV is the best. no one else is even close. It's awesome.
-It's connected. I can start warming/cooling my car from anywhere.
-The power is smoother and faster to come on. It's a better driving experience.
-I get more compliments. I'm in MI, everyone has expensive GM/Ford/etc. People stop me and ask questions, take pics of the Tesla.
-I care about safety. Tesla is the safest car. My gf works for Farmers and says when they get claims people always get hurt except in claims for Teslas. She said the car is always totaled and they catch fire a lot but no one ever gets hurt. Anecdotal evidence....
-The Tesla is fun. Farts, fireplace, etc
-Tesla has no smell and recirc works properly. You life longer/healthier in a Tesla. I'm a health nut
-I care about wars fought over oil and our planet
-My tesla has free USFL so cost can be low to drive it. I'm frugal
-It's 'quicker'. I just feel like I get places and in/out of spots quicker w/o the lag of an ICE

 

[ucmndd]

Pretty easy to calculate that with a .15 profit per KW and a car drawing 100KW, Tesla is profiting $15/hr per stall while in near peak use.
So take a busy SC with 8 stalls averaging 50KW you have 400KW/hr x 18hrs use or $1080 per day. 30 grand per month. The land is free (per their use agreements). Even Willy Wonka can speculate that it does not cost 30 grand per month to maintain an unmanned SC location.

So, in other words, a series of unsubstantiated assumptions followed by a best case and overly simplistic representation of actual costs.

Got it.

How much does the charging equipment itself cost?

Construction of the site?

Dispatching repair technicians when they break?

Monitoring the network?

Tracking and billing usage?

24/7 telephone support?


How is expansion funded? What is an acceptable “profit” in your mind to divert to the construction of more stalls/sites?

What happens when we start all over again and replace them with units twice as fast?

I could keep going...

 

[trm2]

-The Tesla is fun. Farts, fireplace, etc
-Tesla has no smell and recirc works properly. You life longer/healthier in a Tesla. I'm a health nut

These two statements seem to contradict each other

 

[Naekuh]

I don't think waiting to SC is the norm outside of CA

Sigh... remind me why i live here?
OH YEAH, the weather...

But This is a typical day at culver city...
Tesla Supercharger network gets a rough test with Thanksgiving travels

This is how it looks all the time at culver city even at 11pm.
You see all those empty parking spaces? Its a large mall, and way past its closing hours.
Westfield Culver City - Wikipedia <--- thats the mall if you want to google satellite it.

During the day imagine of that line is 3 times as long, even extending all the up to the intersection...

This is why i dont supercharge anymore.
I really dont need to, it was something i did mostly for convience if i was near one.
Now i try to avoid them unless i NEED it.
And even then you should not go to one with less then 5% charge, because your car wont make it past the lines, unless u can get sympathetic people to allow you to cut. (which is usually rare in california)

I once let a old couple go ahead of me, they came from Virgina, and they ran the car to 3%... YIKES..
(everyone in the line knew the pains of a dead Tesla)
I didnt want there road trip ruined, so me and the others behind went sure... go ahead and enjoy california.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Yikes! My brother lives in San Diego and won’t be buying a Tesla anytime soon exactly for this reason. He has destination charging at his work place though.

The 40 minute limit at the Laurel charger shown in the article has been removed. It’s bad enough charging but waiting to charge takes the cake. Looks like Tesla has overgrown their infrastructure in CA. Kinda late to be trying to fix this by making people pay to charge which is going to make little difference in the lines. They already sold the cars.

Sigh... remind me why i live here?
OH YEAH, the weather...

But This is a typical day at culver city...
Tesla Supercharger network gets a rough test with Thanksgiving travels

This is how it looks all the time at culver city even at 11pm.
You see all those empty parking spaces? Its a large mall, and way past its closing hours.
Westfield Culver City - Wikipedia <--- thats the mall if you want to google satellite it.

During the day imagine of that line is 3 times as long, even extending all the up to the intersection...

This is why i dont supercharge anymore.
I really dont need to, it was something i did mostly for convience if i was near one.
Now i try to avoid them unless i NEED it.
And even then you should not go to one with less then 5% charge, because your car wont make it past the lines, unless u can get sympathetic people to allow you to cut. (which is usually rare in california)

I once let a old couple go ahead of me, they came from Virgina, and they ran the car to 3%... YIKES..
(everyone in the line knew the pains of a dead Tesla)
I didnt want there road trip ruined, so me and the others behind went sure... go ahead and enjoy california.

ikes

 

[dark cloud]

....... It won't help them sell their cars that's for sure and the other car makers are coming...

Yes, other EVs are coming. You can bet your bacon none of them are going to come with free charging.

IONITY Installs First 50 Ultra Fast Charging Stations - Tesla Motors Club