Supercharger queuing system

[bradtem]

Well, you might imagine it's complex, but you would be guided through the process with the app in your phone and on the screen of the car, so it would be pretty simple to do. (The part about cars moving in and out of stalls is obviously for the future, once Tesla decides to work on actual useful self-drive stuff instead of the mad push for FSD.)

The main change is you would navigate to the charger if you don't already do that. Almost everybody does that in order to precondition. Your car would tell you how long you would be likely to wait when you got there, and you would, once close enough to the charger, be able to do other things while waiting -- even at locations miles from the charger as long as you watch your timer. I would be very happy to do that rather than wait in line.

When it was your turn, you had better be at the station -- your car and Tesla know whether you are there. Your screen would tell you "go park in stall 4A." You would know that 4A was the best (or only) stall and it would be for you. If anybody else tried to charge in it, their car would be beeping at them telling them not to, refusing to let them charge, and charging them idle fees until they left the stall. They would figure it out after a while.

Of course, if the station were not full or nearly full, none of this would go on. You would just park where you like, but if the station is 50% full you would appreciate it telling you which stall will give you the most kw based on what it's paired with (at v2 chargers.)

You would also very much like it telling you on the way that there's a long wait at the charger and you will save time going to a different charger -- possibly even one that's some distance out of your way if the line is very long.

But alas, if you wanted to "just wait" that would not work well. You would have to wait until all the lines were cleared, and you probably don't want to do that, so you would just do what it says on your screen.

I haven't faced a lot of lines, but hated it when I did. For me the experience would be to see my wait time, then go to my restaurant and start eating. When my phone told me I would be up in 5 minutes, I would temporarily leave the restaurant, drive to the charger to get my spot, then plug in and walk back to finish the meal. When I hit full, if dinner was not done, I would do it again. This might let me eat at a sit-down restaurant rather than a counter one. For most superchargers, sit-down is too long.

Now it's true, when they first started a system like this, some would get confused. But their car would notice they are parked next to a full charger and are just sitting there. It would pop up a screen, "Do you want to queue for a charge?" and walk them through it. Next time they would know.

To be fair, you would not actually enter the queue until you were some distance from the station which assured your arrival near the expected time. If you decided to divert so that you can't make your estimated time, it might push you to the back of the line. Most people would enter the queue on the way to the station. People who don't know the system would only enter it when they got there. If there's only one car in line, Tesla might not bother doing the queue, but it's definitely what you want once there are two.

 

[vikingrob]

Well, you might imagine it's complex, but you would be guided through the process with the app in your phone and on the screen of the car, so it would be pretty simple to do. (The part about cars moving in and out of stalls is obviously for the future, once Tesla decides to work on actual useful self-drive stuff instead of the mad push for FSD.)

The main change is you would navigate to the charger if you don't already do that. Almost everybody does that in order to precondition. Your car would tell you how long you would be likely to wait when you got there, and you would, once close enough to the charger, be able to do other things while waiting -- even at locations miles from the charger as long as you watch your timer. I would be very happy to do that rather than wait in line.

When it was your turn, you had better be at the station -- your car and Tesla know whether you are there. Your screen would tell you "go park in stall 4A." You would know that 4A was the best (or only) stall and it would be for you. If anybody else tried to charge in it, their car would be beeping at them telling them not to, refusing to let them charge, and charging them idle fees until they left the stall. They would figure it out after a while.

Of course, if the station were not full or nearly full, none of this would go on. You would just park where you like, but if the station is 50% full you would appreciate it telling you which stall will give you the most kw based on what it's paired with (at v2 chargers.)

You would also very much like it telling you on the way that there's a long wait at the charger and you will save time going to a different charger -- possibly even one that's some distance out of your way if the line is very long.

But alas, if you wanted to "just wait" that would not work well. You would have to wait until all the lines were cleared, and you probably don't want to do that, so you would just do what it says on your screen.

I haven't faced a lot of lines, but hated it when I did. For me the experience would be to see my wait time, then go to my restaurant and start eating. When my phone told me I would be up in 5 minutes, I would temporarily leave the restaurant, drive to the charger to get my spot, then plug in and walk back to finish the meal. When I hit full, if dinner was not done, I would do it again. This might let me eat at a sit-down restaurant rather than a counter one. For most superchargers, sit-down is too long.

Now it's true, when they first started a system like this, some would get confused. But their car would notice they are parked next to a full charger and are just sitting there. It would pop up a screen, "Do you want to queue for a charge?" and walk them through it. Next time they would know.

To be fair, you would not actually enter the queue until you were some distance from the station which assured your arrival near the expected time. If you decided to divert so that you can't make your estimated time, it might push you to the back of the line. Most people would enter the queue on the way to the station. People who don't know the system would only enter it when they got there. If there's only one car in line, Tesla might not bother doing the queue, but it's definitely what you want once there are two.

What I would do is to push people back only one slot at a time if they are late, because you will have to take traffic into consideration (even on rural interstates), or people not charging up as much as expected. If you are not there when your turn arrives, the next person in line who is already there can charge, and you will be first up when you arrive.

 

[bradtem]

What I would do is to push people back only one slot at a time if they are late, because you will have to take traffic into consideration (even on rural interstates), or people not charging up as much as expected. If you are not there when your turn arrives, the next person in line who is already there can charge, and you will be first up when you arrive.

Many policies are possible. They can try to be "fair" by various definitions or to maximize charger throughput (which is good for everybody but may not be good for you.)

A simple system could not queue you until you arrive. A nicer one might queue you 10 minutes out. Software today is amazingly good at estimating arrival time, factoring in traffic, especially 10 minutes out. I mean you do have to expect some wait to get there a little before your predicted time, and yes, your time could change because somebody aborts a charging session, or somebody abandons their drive to the charger etc. etc. If it's something you did, you should lose your place in line. If it's something beyond your control, then as you say, just bump you back one. Not that you see most of this. It just tells you its best estimate of when you need to be at the charger to be ready to take a slot. If it's wrong, then it treats you well. If it's right and you're not there -- bad news for you, as it would be with a physical line if you left it without a buddy holding your spot.

The worst lines are the ones that are an actual line. You can't do anything but wait, advancing one car every few minutes. Better are the lines where each car takes a parking space and people remember who was ahead of who. You tell new arrivals where they are. But best for Tesla to do all that.

I almost never wait while charging. I always plan to eat or shop. Lines have been one way you can't avoid waiting.

 

[Missile Toad]

Simple solution. Tesla, fix your broken charge stalls so that they are not broken for more than 6 months. I commit this invention to the public domain.

 

[bradtem]

Simple solution. Tesla, fix your broken charge stalls so that they are not broken for more than 6 months. I commit this invention to the public domain.

Tesla's actually much better than the other charging networks, though the primary technique is they always make their stations fairly large, 8 chargers is a smaller station. This means the loss of 1 is not a giant issue. At a 2-plex the loss of 1 can be horrible.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Survival of the fittest.

 

[Missile Toad]

Tesla's actually much better than the other charging networks, though the primary technique is they always make their stations fairly large, 8 chargers is a smaller station. This means the loss of 1 is not a giant issue. At a 2-plex the loss of 1 can be horrible.

Tesla fixes the problem when either of the two happen:

1. Electrify America and/or ChargePoint are on the same scale as Tesla;
2. The stories circulate enough that there are lines forming at stations missing a couple charging stalls.

Being terrible is acceptable as long as the alternatives are worse. That won't last. I've seen stations that go unrepaired for a year or more.
OTOH. having recently stepped-up from a 230 mile-range-car to a 400 mile-range-car. I can just charge to 300 miles at 1PM, and drive through to 4PM and avoid the typical peaks seen at midwestern Superchargers around 2-3PM.

Note, in my experience this 'afternoon peak' tends to occur in country sites or U.S. cities other than the largest 15, and then declines for the remainder of the day.

 

[RTPEV]

The worst lines are the ones that are an actual line. You can't do anything but wait, advancing one car every few minutes. Better are the lines where each car takes a parking space and people remember who was ahead of who. You tell new arrivals where they are. But best for Tesla to do all that.

Absolutely. I once stopped at a 4-stall EA site in a "dead-end" parking lot (meaning you wouldn't be able to form a line without actually blocking access to the stalls themselves, which obviously wouldn't have worked). The only option was to park your vehicle and walk around and ascertain your spot in line. We There were 3 cars in the "line" ahead of us. And of course you couldn't leave to go to the store/restaurant (to otherwise take advantage of the time we were waiting) because you'd effectively lose your place in line, even though we didn't actually need to move our vehicle until it was our turn to charge.

Sure, this is way more common at 4-stall EA sites. But while I am confident Tesla will ramp up their network expansion even more, once Giga Texas hits full stride and they open up the network to CCS vehicles (something that I am in favor of by the way), they will need to find solutions like this to maintain the superior Supercharger experience, because I don't think it's realistic to assume that Superchargers are going to remain mostly empty.

They call themselves a software company -- start acting like one!

 

[5StarAdvisor]

So I’m at a High-usage Supercharger (Scripps Rch). 2 cars were waiting at the entrance of the isle whereas if I waited behind them I would be blocking oncoming traffic. So I pull into an empty parking space in front (visible to all). Another car then pulls along mine, then a fifth car jumps right into the line partially blocking traffic.

Sure enough the stall in front of them opens up and they back in.
I honk… they ignore me.
I roll down the window and pul in front of them… they start arguing that they were next.
So I ask the owner who was waiting in front of me to kindly correct them, as I was waiting about 10min before they even showed…
The owner that cut all of us still argued that I wasn’t in line!!

Is a line supposed to continue on to oncoming traffic??

Come on, use your head and if you see other Teslas count your arrival.

Tesla, create a que system. Really, 10 yrs how much longer will it take you.

(I write this as now all the other stalls open, as my older MS charges at a mile a minute or less. Thanks software downgrade)

 

[hw13]

Come on, use your head and if you see other Teslas count your arrival.

Come on, use your head. There is only 1 line. You thought you could start a 2nd line but were wrong.

 

[Kairide]

What you are all forgetting is that Tesla can’t even figure out logistics of building and delivering cars in order. Do you really think the can handle the logistics of a queing system for their superchargers?

 

[5StarAdvisor]

Come on, use your head. There is only 1 line. You thought you could start a 2nd line but were wrong.

Use your head… there is no proper lines. You can’t block traffic!this is not inN out. You can’t just start a line when there is nowhere to start one.

 

[RayK]

One time where I had to wait a long time for a Supercharger to open up was when I rented a Model 3 in Jan. 2018. I selected the Mountain View location that's next to the Computer History Museum as it was close to work. Unknown to me at the time was that there was already a line of cars waiting to charge. Back then I don't think that there was a real-time display of the available slots at each Supercharger location. If there was, I was too new to the car's interface to know where to look. Anyway, when I pulled into the parking lot I saw that a line of Teslas seemed to be snaking around the lot. I got behind what I assumed to be the last car and looked around. There was a man at the head of the line acting as a charging supervisor and directing cars into newly-opened stalls and trying to keep an eye on new arrivals and having them line up at the correct spot (and not cut in).

When I got near the charging stalls I got out and talked to him for several minutes. Turns out that he volunteered to act as a guide at various places that were at capacity (this was a Sunday afternoon, if I remember correctly). I believe that he said he did this at several places around Silicon Valley. Nice guy. Learned a few things from him about the car and charging. I don't know if they do this anymore but it was a good experience talking to a knowledgeable person about EVs.

The only other time I had to wait was at Truckee, CA (Donner Pass Rd. - July 2019). I had come from a day of skiing at Palisades (nee Squaw Valley) and wanted to charge before heading home. When I got there, there were no open chargers but a semblance of a line was forming so I queued up. No issues with people trying to cut in line.

A recent trip up to Southern Oregon had me stop at Williams, CA. I had checked on availability before arriving and there were a couple of open stations. By the time I got there, I managed to pull into the only open spot. It was fairly busy, another Sunday afternoon. as there were a lot of people going across the street to grab lunch at a restaurant / deli.

I don't think that a reservation system is the right choice. Nor is "remote" or distance queuing. Rather, there needs to be way to sign into a virtual waiting list when you arrive. From a technical standpoint, you can have a WiFi system installed at each Supercharger location that each Tesla can access once within range. If all working Superchargers are active, you automatically get assigned a spot in line and a message delivered to you that tells you how many are ahead of you. You can then park anywhere you want but you'll need to stay within WiFi range (which can be extended far enough in a large parking lot by using WiFi range extenders or a mesh network). When a charging slot opens up, the car at the top of the list gets notified to pull in and start charging. For this system to work, it would need to know the VIN of the car that's next to charge and only allow that car to connect and charge. If somebody tries to cut in and hook up, they would be denied and a message delivered to that effect. For those that are oblivious to console messages, a tooting horn and flashing lights should do the trick.

Of course there's several scenarios which can happen: a waiting car may change their mind and leave, the person in the "next" car may have left for a bio break and/or nourishment when their turn comes up, the WiFi system could go down, a Supercharger station goes down in the middle of charging somebody (do they now get sent to the end of the line?). There are probably endless possibilities that can occur, however with enough forethought I think that a useful system can be installed which could help with crowded stations.

 

[bradtem]

One time where I had to wait a long time for a Supercharger to open up was when I rented a Model 3 in Jan. 2018. I selected the Mountain View location that's next to the Computer History Museum as it was close to work. Unknown to me at the time was that there was already a line of cars waiting to charge. Back then I don't think that there was a real-time display of the available slots at each Supercharger location. If there was, I was too new to the car's interface to know where to look. Anyway, when I pulled into the parking lot I saw that a line of Teslas seemed to be snaking around the lot. I got behind what I assumed to be the last car and looked around. There was a man at the head of the line acting as a charging supervisor and directing cars into newly-opened stalls and trying to keep an eye on new arrivals and having them line up at the correct spot (and not cut in).

When I got near the charging stalls I got out and talked to him for several minutes. Turns out that he volunteered to act as a guide at various places that were at capacity (this was a Sunday afternoon, if I remember correctly). I believe that he said he did this at several places around Silicon Valley. Nice guy. Learned a few things from him about the car and charging. I don't know if they do this anymore but it was a good experience talking to a knowledgeable person about EVs.

The only other time I had to wait was at Truckee, CA (Donner Pass Rd. - July 2019). I had come from a day of skiing at Palisades (nee Squaw Valley) and wanted to charge before heading home. When I got there, there were no open chargers but a semblance of a line was forming so I queued up. No issues with people trying to cut in line.

A recent trip up to Southern Oregon had me stop at Williams, CA. I had checked on availability before arriving and there were a couple of open stations. By the time I got there, I managed to pull into the only open spot. It was fairly busy, another Sunday afternoon. as there were a lot of people going across the street to grab lunch at a restaurant / deli.

I don't think that a reservation system is the right choice. Nor is "remote" or distance queuing. Rather, there needs to be way to sign into a virtual waiting list when you arrive. From a technical standpoint, you can have a WiFi system installed at each Supercharger location that each Tesla can access once within range. If all working Superchargers are active, you automatically get assigned a spot in line and a message delivered to you that tells you how many are ahead of you. You can then park anywhere you want but you'll need to stay within WiFi range (which can be extended far enough in a large parking lot by using WiFi range extenders or a mesh network). When a charging slot opens up, the car at the top of the list gets notified to pull in and start charging. For this system to work, it would need to know the VIN of the car that's next to charge and only allow that car to connect and charge. If somebody tries to cut in and hook up, they would be denied and a message delivered to that effect. For those that are oblivious to console messages, a tooting horn and flashing lights should do the trick.

Of course there's several scenarios which can happen: a waiting car may change their mind and leave, the person in the "next" car may have left for a bio break and/or nourishment when their turn comes up, the WiFi system could go down, a Supercharger station goes down in the middle of charging somebody (do they now get sent to the end of the line?). There are probably endless possibilities that can occur, however with enough forethought I think that a useful system can be installed which could help with crowded stations.

The Computer History Museum charger was one of the first chargers in the Bay Area, where Teslas have always been very popular. Originally chargers were not put in cities, they were for trips between cities. But people who can't charge at home want to charge in the city and so there would be lines. Now they are putting most chargers in cities, which is a shame.

You may misunderstand what others were talking about for a "reservation' system. They mean pretty much what you are talking about, a virtual queue. You can put people in the virtual queue when they arrive, but it's actually better to put them in it when they *will* arrive, because that allows them to do other things while waiting, rather than wait at the charger. If they end up not showing, the harm is minor, they lose their slot and others bump up. (There is a minor issue that suddenly being bumped up could make you thus not get there for your new slot, but this can be handled.)

Perhaps you're not clear about how it's possible to queue people based on when they will arrive but have it be just as fair (and in fact superior) to putting them in the queue when they actually do arrive. If you don't understand that, it can be explained further. A big advantage of a virtual queue is that it doesn't matter where you wait as long as you are there for your position in your queue, so it's good if people can go shop or eat or whatever while in the queue (if it's longer than a few minutes.) Tesla knows when every car that is navigating to the charger will arrive if it does not detour, and it knows how much charge each one will have, and can know what stall it will get, and how long it will take to charge. With some minor slop everything can be managed for maximum convenience for all, so they all get an equal or better result to what they would have gotten by getting into that line at the museum.

 

[RTPEV]

Just to add a bit more: keep in you don't need to rely on whether or not the car is receiving a WiFi signal to know whether it has "left" or not. The car knows where it is already from its GPS receiver, and it even has a very good idea of how long it will take to get to the Supercharger from any given point, so there should be no problem slotting into the queue from a distance, and adjusting the queue position among other cars that are en route as arrival times change. And if the driver changes their mind and bypasses the Supercharger and starts heading away, no big deal--it will start by adjusting the arrival time later and later (moving the car further back in the queue) until eventually the driver finally cancels navigation to the Supercharger. Even if they show up at the Supercharger and decide not to plug in, if they do not plug in within a grace period (5 minutes?) their slot is canceled.

The only two drawbacks I see are that drivers that just show up at a Supercharger may find themselves behind someone that got into the queue before them but was still en route. I guess that's a drawback, but it's no different than when Great Clips gets a walk-in and they get served after me because I checked in online before I left my house. The other would be an undetected issue with one or more stalls (of course this would be an issue with any queuing system)...things like an ICEd stall, a snow bank blocking a stall, or physical damage to the connector. So ideally another aspect of the system is that you could report an unsuccessful attempt at charging, and you would remain at the head of the queue AND the stall would be marked as inoperative so it would not be assigned to others.

 

[Rocky_H]

You may misunderstand what others were talking about for a "reservation' system. They mean pretty much what you are talking about, a virtual queue.

Perhaps you're not clear

Wow, that's kind of rude. I don't think @RayK is misunderstanding or unclear about anything. A reservation system is a specific thing, and it is a very different thing from a queueing system, and yes, I have seen plenty of people here on this forum wanting a reservation system, rather than a queueing system. They have stated that they want to reserve a stall for only them far in advance, and it gets held empty only for them waiting for them to arrive. Sure, it is convenient for them, guaranteeing they have a spot the moment they arrive, so that's why people want it, but it's selfish and isn't an effective use of the resource. So a queueing system is acceptable, but a reservation system is not.

 

[bradtem]

Wow, that's kind of rude. I don't think @RayK is misunderstanding or unclear about anything. A reservation system is a specific thing, and it is a very different thing from a queueing system, and yes, I have seen plenty of people here on this forum wanting a reservation system, rather than a queueing system. They have stated that they want to reserve a stall for only them far in advance, and it gets held empty only for them waiting for them to arrive. Sure, it is convenient for them, guaranteeing they have a spot the moment they arrive, so that's why people want it, but it's selfish and isn't an effective use of the resource. So a queueing system is acceptable, but a reservation system is not.

My apologies then. A Queue is much more workable, so I felt it was the main topic here in spite of the thread title.

Now, it is possible that a charging network could allow reservations, but to do so they would need the person to pay a fair bit for a reservation that would allow the charger to sit unused. If a charger gives you 100kw at 40 cents/kwh, revenue from the station is $40/hour when used, though admittedly gross profit might be much less, under $20/hour. Some people are wealthy enough to afford that and would pay it. However, that would come with other costs, in the customers pissed off because they have to wait if they didn't buy a reservation and the reservations are too expensive.

On the other hand, thanks to navigation, you could sell people reservations and, if they are not there at the start, you could allow others to charge at the charger if they promise to remain with their car, and to leave the stall before the reserving party arrives. (Which you would do not only due to penalties but because charging would shut off 2 minutes before the other party arrives.) While this requires that the arriving driver have an app or car that tracks their location, that's quite common and universal with Teslas.

I do think reservations make a lot of sense for hotel charging. When I book a hotel with charging I want to guarantee I will charge. This is particularly true if the hotel is not near fast charging I can use as a backup. In that case given a hotel with a reservation I will strongly prefer it over one without it.

In a truly competitive market you could see things like bidding for reservations, even possibly making a reservation and getting outbid, but getting part of the new bidder's money as compensation. It would be interesting, but complex. In a situation like the famous 3 hour line on I-5 on Thanksgiving, one wonders what would have happened had people been able to bid for reservations (or just priority.) Some would have been happy, some furious, and Tesla would have made a lot of money. People would be less furious if it were voluntary, "We're asking for volunteers willing to wait 3 hours and let somebody else charge and we'll pay you $100" but still probably angry, which Tesla doesn't want.

 

[bradtem]

Just to add a bit more: keep in you don't need to rely on whether or not the car is receiving a WiFi signal to know whether it has "left" or not. The car knows where it is already from its GPS receiver, and it even has a very good idea of how long it will take to get to the Supercharger from any given point, so there should be no problem slotting into the queue from a distance, and adjusting the queue position among other cars that are en route as arrival times change. And if the driver changes their mind and bypasses the Supercharger and starts heading away, no big deal--it will start by adjusting the arrival time later and later (moving the car further back in the queue) until eventually the driver finally cancels navigation to the Supercharger. Even if they show up at the Supercharger and decide not to plug in, if they do not plug in within a grace period (5 minutes?) their slot is canceled.

The only two drawbacks I see are that drivers that just show up at a Supercharger may find themselves behind someone that got into the queue before them but was still en route. I guess that's a drawback, but it's no different than when Great Clips gets a walk-in and they get served after me because I checked in online before I left my house. The other would be an undetected issue with one or more stalls (of course this would be an issue with any queuing system)...things like an ICEd stall, a snow bank blocking a stall, or physical damage to the connector. So ideally another aspect of the system is that you could report an unsuccessful attempt at charging, and you would remain at the head of the queue AND the stall would be marked as inoperative so it would not be assigned to others.

They might show up to find somebody arriving later but it would only seem that way. If I am an hour away at 6pm and nav-to-charger to request a slot, it will predict my arrival at approximately 7pm but with a 15 minute wait, start charging 7:15pm. If at 7:10pm somebody arrives and requests right on arrival, they will get told they will start around 7:25pm. Now, I may have decided to detour and get food, but when I arrive at 7:15 I will put right into my spot, even though he's been there for 5 minutes. Which might annoy him. But the reality is if I had driven straight there I would have been there for 10 minutes before he pulled in, and he would have been 10 minutes behind me in the physical line, just as he is in the virtual line.

The main wrinkle is that since some people will miss their time or abandon it, you your time may move up. In addition, if somebody is slow (and pays idle fees) your time may get delayed. In the former case you may miss your time because you thought you had more, and there are various things you can do about that with various reactions you will get. Of course you will see a constant update on predictions, but once you have decided on a detour it may not be practical to make an earlier time given you.

 

[RTPEV]

In a situation like the famous 3 hour line on I-5 on Thanksgiving, one wonders what would have happened had people been able to bid for reservations (or just priority.) Some would have been happy, some furious, and Tesla would have made a lot of money.

Kind of reminds me of a jukebox system I used last fall. You could spend 3 credits for a song, but if you spent 6 credits, you would move up in priority. I didn't necessarily care if my song played next, so I opted for the 3. Well, it turns out that anyone that spent 6 credits would immediately cut in line, and basically everyone was just using 6 credits. I probably put my request in at 9pm or so, hung out until midnight and then finally left. At about 1am some friends that were still there let me know that my song finally played!

 

[Rocky_H]

@RTPEV Huh, that is a very interesting setup for a jukebox. It reminds me a bit of a thing with my company. We send data to a shop to have them build things. We can designate some as "priority" to get them to move faster. Of course, most people think their stuff is important, but we say, "If everything is priority, then nothing is priority."