Tesla blesses other cars blocking two stalls due to short cord

[jsmay311]

Note for the mechanism pointed out for the ford adapter, it's only a last resort safety mechanism (cuts off control pilot completely when it hits a set limit). It does not let you adjust current based on conditions, unlike the built in sensors you mentioned (which can communicate with the vehicle/charger/EVSE). That's why my question asked about communication.

Well I finally found a teardown of the OEM Tesla vehicle to CCS charger adapter [...]

There's a circuit board with two temperature sensors (the one on the right is the Tesla one)

I'm quite intrigued by how this all works with the adapter (although my understanding is certainly impeded by a lack of fully understanding how the existing CCS communication protocols work in practice. But with that said...)

In the video that you linked here, the "Director of Charging Services" from Ford (Jovina Young) claims that the Tesla-to-CCS adapter DOES have the ability to throttle charging speed before it cuts it off altogether:

Jovina Young: "There are two temperature sensors within the adapter so that if it starts to get a bit warm, it can slow down energy going through. If it starts to get a bit hot it can actually interupt it as well."
Tom Moloughney: "So the adapter itself can throttle down the charging rate if it's starting to get too hot? Or does it communicate [...] how does that work?"
Jovina Young: "No. It communicates through the control pilot [...] then both the charger and the vehicle can sensor that trigger. The adapter is not smart but that interaction with it actually just triggers that and then it's either the charger or the vehicle itself sensing that."

This is where I get confused. So the adapter is not smart, but it can throttle charging before cutting it off completely. But how does that work? Does it like change a resistance across the CP pin or something like that, and maybe the car/charger is able to sense that change and reduce the amps by X%??

Anybody know?

 

[gt2690b]

I'm quite intrigued by how this all works with the adapter (although my understanding is certainly impeded by a lack of fully understanding how the existing CCS communication protocols work in practice. But with that said...)

In the video that you linked here, the "Director of Charging Services" from Ford (Jovina Young) claims that the Tesla-to-CCS adapter DOES have the ability to throttle charging speed before it cuts it off altogether:

Jovina Young: "There are two temperature sensors within the adapter so that if it starts to get a bit warm, it can slow down energy going through. If it starts to get a bit hot it can actually interupt it as well."
Tom Moloughney: "So the adapter itself can throttle down the charging rate if it's starting to get too hot? Or does it communicate [...] how does that work?"
Jovina Young: "No. It communicates through the control pilot [...] then both the charger and the vehicle can sensor that trigger. The adapter is not smart but that interaction with it actually just triggers that and then it's either the charger or the vehicle itself sensing that."

This is where I get confused. So the adapter is not smart, but it can throttle charging before cutting it off completely. But how does that work? Does it like change a resistance across the CP pin or something like that, and maybe the car/charger is able to sense that change and reduce the amps by X%??

Anybody know?

I would guess it just provides a temperature to the charger.. if the charger sees it's too high it throttles

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm quite intrigued by how this all works with the adapter (although my understanding is certainly impeded by a lack of fully understanding how the existing CCS communication protocols work in practice. But with that said...)

In the video that you linked here, the "Director of Charging Services" from Ford (Jovina Young) claims that the Tesla-to-CCS adapter DOES have the ability to throttle charging speed before it cuts it off altogether:

Jovina Young: "There are two temperature sensors within the adapter so that if it starts to get a bit warm, it can slow down energy going through. If it starts to get a bit hot it can actually interupt it as well."
Tom Moloughney: "So the adapter itself can throttle down the charging rate if it's starting to get too hot? Or does it communicate [...] how does that work?"
Jovina Young: "No. It communicates through the control pilot [...] then both the charger and the vehicle can sensor that trigger. The adapter is not smart but that interaction with it actually just triggers that and then it's either the charger or the vehicle itself sensing that."

This is where I get confused. So the adapter is not smart, but it can throttle charging before cutting it off completely. But how does that work? Does it like change a resistance across the CP pin or something like that, and maybe the car/charger is able to sense that change and reduce the amps by X%??

Anybody know?

Well upthread, someone said it just cuts off the control pilot signal when it hits a given temperature, which makes it a relatively "dumb" passive mechanism that can easily be implemented without any communication with either the vehicle or charger. If it can also reduce power, then it's more complex than indicated (which again is why I asked about communication).

For CCS the communication should be PLC, but I doubt there is another PLC chip in the adapter given the shortages of that. It doesn't look visible, although there may be chips on the other side of the board.

For regular J1772, current limits for AC is communicated via PWM on the control pilot (CP) or via resistance values on the proximity pilot (PP). However, presumably those current limit indicators are not used when DC charging, given it should be done via PLC.
SAE J1772 - Wikipedia

NACS spec says CP is used the same way as J1772, just that PLC goes over that too. PP is only used to signify latch status as per page 8.
https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf"

I still have a copy of the NACS datasheet. There is a temperature switch that trips at 95C, this is pretty straightforward and can be replicated on the adapter easily (since it just cuts the signal). There is also a NTC,10K thermistor used as a temperature sensor which has a 75C limit. This is what is used for temperature throttling. However, that would not be connected to the pins, but would be built into the connector, which would then be used by the supercharger. I don't see how to replicate that on the adapter without some sort of external communication.

Maybe if someone has J3400 they can look up if there is any temperature communication in the spec.

 

[Watts_Up]

 

[buckets0fun]

View attachment 1024807

Someone didn’t raise you right if you think this is how the world works.
If you stand that close to me, I’m evacuating on your shoe.

 

[BigNick]

Here is the right way to make a supercharger that will work for everyone.
View attachment 1024541

This is the way.

When was the last time you visited a gas station where the pump was effectively boxed in on three sides? (yes, I know many of you are ICE-free and haven't been to a gas station in 10+ years)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I should have added a smiley face. I could not block stalls regardless of what kind of car I have as I wasn't brought up that way. Unfortunately I got a feeling, based on experience that there are plenty who are "entitled" and don't give a crap who they inconvenience and opening the chargers to all will just increase the odds.

I can only hope that the extra revenue from the non-Tesla users will speed up the expanding of the charger network. If it does that it's probably worth it. For the record I have supercharged exactly 2 times and one for less than 5 minutes in my 3.5 months and 3,600 miles of usage. Plug in at night and it's all I need 95% of the time.

It should do. Remember that Tesla's locations don't really have enough power to charge everybody at max if they're full.
Even a consistently half-full Supercharger is a sign that they need to expand capacity in some way. And that should _soon_ be V4.

 

[Alonzo]

I think one of the main reasons the CCS netwoks were built so poorly is they were built with subsidies. When you subsidize a station, it gets put in just to get the subsidy, not because it serves customers, and so when it breaks, there is no motive to fix it.

I remember visiting California back in the 80's, seeing so many wind generators. What surprised me was that so many of them were not performing. There were generous incentives to build and install them, but virtually no incentive to maintain and keep them operating. Today, of course, is different.

 

[Watts_Up]

Someone didn’t raise you right if you think this is how the world works.
If you stand that close to me, I’m evacuating on your shoe.

So will you use the left one, with risk of evacuating yourself on your shoes.
Or will you prefer using the middle one, with risk of someone evacuating on your shoes?

 

[stopcrazypp]

So will you use the left one, with risk of evacuating yourself on your shoes.
Or will you prefer using the middle one, with risk of someone evacuating on your shoes?

For the shorter ones, if you have empty space anyways, you can easily spread your legs more to adjust the height. It's not that big a deal. Plus if you aim at the back wall instead of the hole anyways, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

Of course it does depend on the specific one, most are mounted only slightly lower and the overall height (from bottom to top) is still fairly long. Some are mounted almost to the ground and the height is also mini (which are ones you may avoid even if empty).

 

[buckets0fun]

So will you use the left one, with risk of evacuating yourself on your shoes.
Or will you prefer using the middle one, with risk of someone evacuating on your shoes?

In your photo, #3. Any other ones and I’m having a wee on you while we have a convo, then I’m touching your face with some fumunda cheese. All while making fun of you.

If you’re a meat checker/package handler, just say that. Every other has been the ‘norm’ forever.

This isn’t my <old> day job where I’m ok with a dude holding a camera getting that angle you like while browsing xnxx.

 

[T3SLAROD]

Tesla Superchargers Aren’t Just for Teslas Anymore. We Tested 10 of Them.

Tesla has opened its charging network to other EV brands, starting with Ford. With an adapter, non-Teslas can now use Superchargers. Is it easy to get started? How do the speed and price compare? To test it, WSJ’s Joanna Stern hit up 10 Tesla Superchargers in her Ford Mustang Mach-E. Photo...

www.wsj.com

 

[bradtem]

Tesla Superchargers Aren’t Just for Teslas Anymore. We Tested 10 of Them.

Tesla has opened its charging network to other EV brands, starting with Ford. With an adapter, non-Teslas can now use Superchargers. Is it easy to get started? How do the speed and price compare? To test it, WSJ’s Joanna Stern hit up 10 Tesla Superchargers in her Ford Mustang Mach-E. Photo...

www.wsj.com

She worries how she's blocking a stall for a Tesla, but doesn't figure out if she just goes to the right hand side, she won't. No surprise as Tesla and Ford don't explain this.

 

[T3SLAROD]

She worries how she's blocking a stall for a Tesla, but doesn't figure out if she just goes to the right hand side, she won't. No surprise as Tesla and Ford don't explain this.

She is basically showing what the non-informed will end up doing as more people purchase EV's that aren't Tesla. I for one am happy the NACS Extension is coming.

 

[stopcrazypp]

She worries how she's blocking a stall for a Tesla, but doesn't figure out if she just goes to the right hand side, she won't. No surprise as Tesla and Ford don't explain this.

She will, even in the rightmost station, two spots are taken up because she is plugging in using the stall to the left of her. Or are you talking about a different configuration not shown in the video?

 

[bradtem]

She will, even in the rightmost station, two spots are taken up because she is plugging in using the stall to the left of her. Or are you talking about a different configuration not shown in the video?

If a Ford parks in the empty space next to the right most stall and plugs in, a Tesla can plug in the space on the other side of the right most stall, and use its charger, and no stall will be blocked. Additional Fords can continue to park on the right, and additional Teslas (and similar cars) on the left. Where they meet there will be an empty parking space, but not an empty charger.

Of course, it's hard to be perfect about this. If there are 3 Fords on the right, and any but the leftmost leaves, a Tesla can't take that space, but another Ford-like car can arrive and take it.

If people follow the semi-natural desire to park every other space, that causes a problem. You could have Teslas parked every other space, and then no Ford can charge even though the station is half-full. You could have a lot of Fords park every other space and no Tesla could then park.

Fortunately, I suspect 80%+ of the cars at SC stations will continue to be Teslas, and the few non-Teslas that need to use a charger on their left side can hopefully learn to park on the right, which Teslas should avoid if they can. And the app the Fords use to activate should tell them that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If a Ford parks in the empty space next to the right most stall and plugs in,

But that's not a space, that looks to be in the travel path. People shouldn't be expected to park there. If parking at an actual space, two spaces will be taken up anyways.

a Tesla can plug in the space on the other side of the right most stall, and use its charger, and no stall will be blocked. Additional Fords can continue to park on the right, and additional Teslas (and similar cars) on the left. Where they meet there will be an empty parking space, but not an empty charger.

Of course, it's hard to be perfect about this. If there are 3 Fords on the right, and any but the leftmost leaves, a Tesla can't take that space, but another Ford-like car can arrive and take it.

If people follow the semi-natural desire to park every other space, that causes a problem. You could have Teslas parked every other space, and then no Ford can charge even though the station is half-full. You could have a lot of Fords park every other space and no Tesla could then park.

Fortunately, I suspect 80%+ of the cars at SC stations will continue to be Teslas, and the few non-Teslas that need to use a charger on their left side can hopefully learn to park on the right, which Teslas should avoid if they can. And the app the Fords use to activate should tell them that.

I guess we will see how it goes, but it may be overblown given Tesla seems to not have opened up their most congested stations (even with V3) and Europe didn't seem to have trouble due to taking a similar approach (not opening the most congested stations).

 

[ClarDold]

One can hope that automakers adopting NACS will also adopt a common charge point location that will make this a non-issue within the next refresh cycle.

Charge port location is as contentious as port configuration.
My 11 year old EV has the charge port in the front.
My 1 year old EV will continue to have its charge port in the left front, behind the wheel, probably for the next ten to fifteen years.

Right front seems much friendlier, helpful in areas with street side charging. That would fit in a Tesla stall nicely, even when towing a trailer.
But, "the next refresh cycle", even if standardizing on Tesla compatible won't have any impact this decade.

 

[bradtem]

Charge port location is as contentious as port configuration.
My 11 year old EV has the charge port in the front.
My 1 year old EV will continue to have its charge port in the left front, behind the wheel, probably for the next ten to fifteen years.

Right front seems much friendlier, helpful in areas with street side charging. That would fit in a Tesla stall nicely, even when towing a trailer.
But, "the next refresh cycle", even if standardizing on Tesla compatible won't have any impact this decade.

Well, sort of. The old cars are the old cars, but the number of non-Tesla EVs out there is only a small fraction of cars. Now I would have said now that everybody switched to NACS and wants Tesla SC, nobody would design a car that doesn't put the port where it can reach Tesla SC, but in fact they are dong so. And that's in part because new Tesla SC will have longer cords or other solutions which will reach those cars.

So yes, the V2 and many of the V3 SC will only serve cars configured like a Tesla. Which is most EVs today. But in the future, those SC will be a small fraction of fast chargers.

So that's why people are not that worried. For the rest, the extension cable, while expensive, will do the job. All of us who bought early pay a price -- look at the used price of my Model 3 now! -- but we also got to drive fun EVs for several years, too.

 

[ClarDold]

There's only 4 superchargers serving the entire city of Boston with 8/8/8/10.

Those are 72 kW chargers. They aren't available to NACS and never will be.
They don't seem blocked from NACS because they are busy locations.
There is a 250 kW Supercharger at Somerville that is not open.
Just off the north edge of your map, there is a Supercharger at Suffolk Downs Target that is open to NACS.