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Superchargers visited 3.0

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by tes-s, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. matt_net_zero

    matt_net_zero Member

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    #381 matt_net_zero, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    I'm an engineer, I don't know how to do short. ;) I'm working on the trip report.

    Background: after Bush started the gulf war, I grew an intense distaste for the fossil fuel industry. In 2013 I dipped a toe into the EV market with a leased Nissan Leaf. I started watching Tesla and the clean energy movement. In 2016 we turned in our leased Leaf and leased another. We still had a gasser so the Leaf was a perfect commuter and "good enough" for about 95% of our needs. We moved the vast majority of our household miles to electric, on a 120V plug in our rented house.

    Early in 2016 we got booted from the house we had rented for 7 years. It was the kick we needed to move from "looking" to "serious." We bought a house near the top of a hill with no trees around. I'm sure you can't guess why. The day after we closed the solar guys were on the roof. (aside: the array will be fully paid for by this time next year.)

    To clean up our energy act, I added that 10kW solar array, converted the 1955 house to electric everything and super-insulated it. Then I added a ChargePoint so we could put even more miles on the EV. All the while I was still eying Tesla and building up a little pile of cash. In February '19 the cash pile exceeded the price of the Model 3 so I did the needful: an AWD Long Range. Four days after order it was in my driveway.

    Then I saw the supercharger contest. After 7 years of EV ownership, I could still count on one hand the number of Level 3 stations I'd visited. And none of them had been "fun" experiences.

    A month before the kids got out of school, I created a shreadsheet with all the border states. My kids (boy 12, girl 14) got two fields on the spreadsheet for each state. For each state, they needed to research on the internet and find two attractions they wanted to see and plug them into their two fields. Then I geolocated their preferred attractions and plotted our route around the country.

    I had purchased 5 of the Tesla adapters so I could plug into darn near anything and charge. We still had to make some concessions to the circumnavigation plan. For example, our route skipped N. Dakota. No superchargers, and we had a 3rd child with us for the leg to Michigan. We didn't have 30 extra hours to level 2 charge at a KOA, a Nissan dealer, and a clean energy place along the way. We also swung above Lake Ontario through Canada because that route had many more superchargers than western New York state. For that jaunt, I blame you, reader of this thread. :p

    I'll post later with our trip log.
     
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  2. Darren S

    Darren S Supporting Member

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    @matt_net_zero, you had me at "Engineer." Nice story and trip and parts of it look similar to a few of my adventures.
     
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  3. Randy Spencer

    Randy Spencer Active Member

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    That is so the trip I was planning, then I lucked into a used 4.3kW solar system for $1440 with all the fiddly bits and I have been learning about electricity and watching YouTube videos about installing a solar system and spent the last two months on the roof. I may finally have my initial inspection on Monday and then slap the panels down. Getting super close.

    Perhaps I will do my Circumnavination trip in the Fall. Sadly no longer a trailblazer.
     
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  4. bmah

    bmah Moderator, Model S/X, California Forums

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    @bishoppeak was the first person I met who’d done a trip like this. He posted about it on TMC and I met him in real life at TMC Connect 2017 a few weeks later (“Oh yeah you’re that guy!”).

    Bruce.
     
  5. matt_net_zero

    matt_net_zero Member

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    Actually, if you wait until the N. Dakota supercharges are online, you could be! We detoured through S. Dakota. Not quite a perfect circumnavigation. We did it clockwise, so if you go counterclockwise (like the lady we met who was doing exactly that on her Indian motorcycle) it’ll be a novel trip. Finally, there’s plenty of better reasons to take the trip than being the first. :)
     
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  6. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    I am resurrecting this thread so we can have a public discussion about the game separate from the game (visits).

    I have looked at our data, which comes from supercharge.info. One thing is clear - any rules we make about whether a supercharger should be one location or two, there will be exceptions. I think the most important thing is to be fair to the participants.

    Here is what I found in the data.

    Almost all superchargers we have link back to a Tesla Find Us location. But locations (in Find Us) can be a supercharger, service center, or store/gallery. Most of course are Tesla supercharger locations. But when they are service centers or stores, sometimes they are on the nav as a supercharger, and sometimes not. Sometimes the location description says there is a supercharger there, sometimes not.

    Some superchargers do not link back to a Tesla Find Us location. For the most part these are new superchargers and Tesla has simply not officially opened them yet. But there are some other cases.

    Marlton, NJ - not in Find Us, but it is in the Nav. Simpy a Tesla error.

    Las Vegas - Alta Drive, NV - not in Find Us, but it is in the Nav. Probably a Tesla error, but it is located right by Tivoli Village. Since the Tesla Tivoli Village stall count does not include the two for Alta Drive, I consider it like Marlton - just missing from Find Us.

    Abenra, Denmark. This is the only example where supercharge.info has two locations (Abenra 10 stalls and Rodekro 6 stalls) and Tesla Find Us and Nav has one (Rodekro 16 stalls).

    There are a few others. Here is the full list.
    Menifee, CA
    Milpitas - Great Mall, CA
    Newark, CA
    Placerville, CA
    Acworth, GA
    Hudsonville, MI
    Albert Lea - Happy Trails Lane, MN
    Marlton, NJ
    Las Vegas - Alta Drive, NV
    Austin - Stonelake Blvd, TX
    Webster, TX
    Åbenrå, Denmark
    Cagnes-sur-Mer – Polygone Riviera P2, France
    Nürburgring, Germany
     
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  7. MarcoRP

    MarcoRP Mr. PlugShare

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    Looking at your list, I can say the first 11 just haven’t been added on Find Us for whatever reason is taking Tesla so long. Abenra is divided into 2 different locations, something Tesla doesn’t seem to recognize, same for Cagnes-sur-Mer P2, and the Nurburgring Nordschleife Supercharger isn’t public.
     
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  8. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    Yes, that makes sense. The question is when do we decide to depart from Tesla and call it two locations when they do not?

    St. Anton? Superchargers Visited
    Lermoos? Superchargers Visited
     
  9. Chuq

    Chuq Active Member

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    As if right on cue, the number of "missing Tesla superchargers" on sc.info just dropped from 55 to 44. I'd say quite a few of these will be covered.
     
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  10. Chuq

    Chuq Active Member

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    The following now have the correct "find us location" value in supercharge.info:

    Rancho Mirage, CA
    Placerville, CA
    Newark, CA
    Milpitas - Great Mall, CA
    Hudsonville, MI
    Baileyville, ME
    Austin - Research Blvd, TX
    Albert Lea - Happy Trails Lane, MN
    Acworth, GA
     
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  11. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    So what's up with Marlton NJ??!! Only been open since April. :)
     
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  12. Bighorn

    Bighorn Top Supercharger

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    I have a few thoughts as I drive back cross country working to pick off the last dozen or so unclaimed superchargers on my list. Tone is always impossible to convey, so with trepidation I will share some rambling thoughts.
    I take issue with the leaderboard representing a game that 98% of us, give or take, are not participating in. There are lots of analogies that come to mind that illustrate how inappropriate this is. Competitors long locked in battle don’t change rules to favor one midstream. That someone could now come in new and cherry pick the heaviest concentration of chargers on two continents and in a matter of weeks/months be ahead of someone who had been playing in earnest for 5 years is nuts. I’ve stated my opinion both recently and in the past. I understand we can get a customized view, but to have the misrepresentation of reality front and center on page one is not right. Make a global leaderboard for the few people who’ve gone to the bother, but don’t make it look like it’s the game we’re playing.

    I think the totals a dozen of us have already laid down are daunting enough to newbies without piling on with easy pickings from a week abroad. I felt bad enough that I was sitting alone on top, I never would have entertained a move to exacerbate that lead. I have no desire to spend several thousand dollars to join a global “competition” either. And really it’s not a competition, it’s a loophole.

    I recognize we have no mechanism to legislate this issue and I’ve tried to foster thoughtful discussion before it came to eventually transpire, but it gained no traction in establishing a commensurate policy. Sure it’s fun to have a horse race or see a lead change, but this is not that. I share the link to this competition with regularity to attract new recruits. Let’s not have the first thing they see be a charade.
    I would appreciate a thoughtful discussion and resolution. Thanks.
     
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  13. IT Geek

    IT Geek Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean by this...but it almost sounds like that's what you want to do. To me, from my position on the sidelines, it looks like you want to change the rules of the game so that it somehow becomes "continent based" rather than "count based", and wouldn't that in fact favor you right now over all the other competitors?

    Yeah, but isn't that the nature of the game? The playing field is always expanding...both in number of chargers and number of people in the competition. I'm under no delusion that the biggest reason I've been able to get to so many chargers is that there are so many chargers out there to get. It was a different world 5 years ago when it took thousands of miles to get 100 or 200 chargers. Now you can get to 100 in just one state. I don't fault new people for coming in now and shooting up the leader-board, that's just the reality that we're in now.

    I'm not sure how it's a loophole. Hasn't the game has always been "Most Superchargers Visited" not "Greatest percentage of Superchargers Visited within a specific geographical region". If someone wants to spend thousands of their own dollars to travel abroad so that they can increase the number of Superchargers that they have used then good for them.

    I've always felt like this game was to encourage people to get out and use as many Superchargers as they could while traveling around and seeing new sights. For me it's been a good excuse to get off the normal roads and take some detours that I wouldn't take otherwise. There have only been a couple times where I've cared about my position on the list. But I do like using this game as motivation to get me back out on the road. I bought my car to drive it...and I'm accomplishing that. So for me, the game is doing exactly what I want it to do.

    Hmm...there's a line that you were pushing up against with most of your post, but calling it a "charade" seems to be a bit over.

    In honesty, I thought we had discussed the possibility of someone "going international" several times now and usually the consensus has been that all the chargers should count. I'm not sure I understand why they shouldn't either...or that the case has been made that we should do things differently than they way they have been done up until now. But, I'm certainly willing to listen to others who might disagree.
     
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  14. cpa

    cpa Active Member

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    One distant voice for the 98%:

    Bighorn has seized upon reality. In the early days, Superchargers were spaced quite far apart. One had to stop at each one to climb the board. Many routes were incomplete and others were bereft. Competitors were forced to drive hundreds of miles out of their way, perhaps with destination charging to get to another stretch of highway to continue their quest. As highways were filled in and new routes were added, the competitors had to retrace their steps, visiting many old sites to grab a handful of new ones. Moreover, the recent explosion of Superchargers and Urbanchargers in metropolitan areas provides easy pickins for newcomers; thirty months ago, there were only 8-10 in the Bay Area and about the same in LA. Today there must be 35-40 in the Bay Area and 20-25 in greater LA. (Just a WAG; no need to confirm.)

    Now, we can just visit long enough to have electrons flowing, maybe six minutes total from highway exit, park, plug, unplug, and resume our trip. We no longer have to stop; rather we want to stop to put another notch in our belt. I did not avail myself of this tactic until I recently ascertained that unnecessary charging stops counted the same as necessary ones. This is not a complaint; this is not sour grapes; it is merely a statement of my mindset from the early days. I probably bypassed ten SC back then because I did not need the charge, or the routing would add 3-4 hours to my day's journey.

    We all have our motivations, rationalizations, and causes to explain the extent in which we participate in this quixotic quest. It is truly quixotic, and there is nothing wrong with that! :) (Has anyone seen my old friend, Sancho Panza?) :rolleyes:

    To include all global visits on the leaderboard detracts from the collegial genesis and evolution of this competition. International visits should of course be tallied, but as I stated elsewhere, I believe strongly that they should be separate from our geographical home.

    I do not think that we need to label different categories of participation and then slot us participants into one of these labeled categories. I think it serves our purposes to keep the official tally of visits to our home geographical region with a parenthesis or asterisked total of all visits. Maybe Bighorn's totals from his foray into deep Mexico should be excluded from his North American total but included in parenthesis or with an asterisk, a la Ford Frick's famous asterisk next to Roger Maris' 61 home runs in 1961 when the schedule increased to 162 games. (Yes, I know Mexico is in NA.) Maybe the same should be noted for PLUS EV and his European sojourn.

    :)
     
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  15. Bighorn

    Bighorn Top Supercharger

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    I remember a couple alcohol-fueled monologues on the subject, but no consensus, especially amongst this group of mostly introverts. I’m not trying to tilt the playing field. I think the decision should be:
    1) fair
    2) logical
    3) sensible
    4) sportsman-like.

    The overwhelming feedback I’m getting sent directly is that there should be continental leaderboards. Over the course of the competition, I’ve rented cars in Europe and stopped at superchargers. Never thought I’d want to complicate the competition by renting a Tesla out of fairness. I’ve also had someone coordinate a trip to Europe with a Tesla rental arranged four years ago in order to collect superchargers, goading me to co-pilot, and I declined. I’ve always voiced an opposition, albeit soft spoken as it is my nature. I’ve also expressed a willingness to negate my Mexico chargers though they were fairly gotten, in light of the danger and expense. I’ve deferred over my objections to include pay lots and valets. I’ve never begrudged anyone the increasing ease to get 100 chargers relative to the old days. I’m not trying to dissuade any collection of superchargers or game play, I just think they should be properly attributed and not create an unassailable lead in an artificial, unequal tally.
     
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  16. theflyer

    theflyer Member

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    Wha's so baffling to me about this discussion is that global counts have been included all along. There are several competitors who had counts from multiple continents and "Elon Bear" is high on the list because someone well before I arrived on the scene allowed drivers to aggregate counts into a single virtual competitor. The only reason global counts is a problem now is because a certain someone is losing his lead. I for one always took "Most superchargers visited" to mean global. Tesla's objective is, after all, to accelerate the transition to sustainable transportation." For the globe, not just the USA. How cool would it be if some human being was able to visit every supercharger on the globe?

    So, I agree with @tes-s, that this current discussion to limit the competition to just the USA is actually an effort to change the rules to benefit the person who is losing the global lead. If, for some reason, he can no longer drive across the continent on a whim to get a new supercharger, does that mean we'd then have to change rules for first visits to make it so others can't get the first visit? Why don't we change the rules so only people with full-time jobs can compete? Is it fair that I can't keep up with the top 7 because I can only get superchargers during my vacations or on weekend jaunts? Jeez, wasn't this supposed to be a friendly way of enjoying our Teslas, sharing stories with each other, and getting out to see the world? I'm personally a bit jealous that @PLUS EV has the resources and time to get over to Europe. I hope to do the same one day.

    Adding other dimensions, like superchargers per day, was a way to expand the measurement dimensions so people could "compete" in different domains.

    If chargers visited as a percentage of density over time is something people want to see, I can probably make that visualization happen. It won't be easy but we have the data now to do it.
     
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  17. Bighorn

    Bighorn Top Supercharger

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    You’ve thoroughly missed my points and are grossly misjudging my character and tone, which I started off warning against. Elon Bear was a fun, virtual competitor. Remind me why you’re the arbiter here. I’ve happily given up my lead on several occasions as @NKYTA and @Half Dollar Bill can attest. It is a fun pastime for me and those I share it with and I resent having aspirations cast because you hold the keys to the programming. 75% of my time here was done while running a full time medical practice, so spare me. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a global count, but that it’s not the primary focus of anyone up until this week. My objections predated this eventuality by years, so maybe check your baggage at the door.
     
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  18. theflyer

    theflyer Member

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    I am not the arbiter. I just don't understand why this is all of a sudden an issue. Why didn't you raise this concern when S-19910 chalked up chargers on multiple continents? Its been a global competition all along. Why is it a problem that PLUS EV is racking up superchargers in Europe? Are you recommending splitting the competition into parts: One for North America? One for Europe and One for Asia? Mexico is risky as all get out. Should we exclude it? Should we exclude Canada because it requires a passport to access those superchargers? Help me understand.
     
  19. Shesmyne2"

    Shesmyne2" Member

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    Again, as a low-on-the-totem pole contender I believe separate leaderboards are common sense.
    I can’t count the hours the hubs was away playing the SC Pokémon go game in the last 7 years.
    Yes, times are changing and the game has to change with it.
    So give credit where credit is due. Adapt the game.
     
  20. Bighorn

    Bighorn Top Supercharger

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    I was not aware of other competitors combining continents, though the record shows I’ve brought up my objections in the past. Yes, there should be three different continental lists and a global list. You must have glossed over where I said I would be willing to drop my Mexican chargers and where I said there were competitors who are unable to go into Canada.
    Perhaps we put it to a vote rather than start or continue a pissing contest. It’s rather an unseemly response to my original request for a reasoned discussion. Yes, we know you’re under pressure, but maybe compartmentalize.
    Most people here have met me several if not many times, so I think they have a measure of my character. I have no idea who you are. I apologize if we’ve met. I think several people, @DavidB comes to mind, would be bothered by having a first place possibility snatched from reach by a record keeping decision, as I saw him as someone who could easily surpassed me. As it stands, it’s impossible without a trans-Atlantic flight, which I doubt he’d do without his dogs. I realize we all are not environmentalists, but do we really want to be espousing that which is being eschewed as incredibly polluting? Maybe we should institute a sailboat rule. Relax, it’s a joke.
     
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