Supercharging Hypothetical #1 -- Abusive or not?

[David99]

Long distance traveling is a scenario where you have to charge very quick to be able to make use of your car. It's the one thing that ICE cars are still better at so the Superchargers try to fix that as good as possible. It's very important. But long distance traveling isn't the only case where quick charging is needed. Any time you exceed the range of the battery but you still need your car for driving is an equal situation where you really need a fast charger. So in my humble opinion Superchargers should be used in all situations where you need it to make up for the disadvantage over an ICE.

 

[tomas]

I honestly think the jury is still out on that. There are lots of examples of Superchargers in areas like the center of London that are in no way conducive to long distance travel. Even the Toronto location (at a Store/Service Center) is used for charging customer's cars. Toronto is full of condos who's boards won't necessarily allow on-site charging facilities to be installed (regardless of who pays) and Tesla representatives themselves have been saying here that the Supercharger could be an option for those customers.

I do agree the original intent was long distance travel, but it seems to have morphed a bit from that. Maybe one way to look at it is by where the Supercharger is installed. Out at a highway rest stop in the middle of nowhere: clearly a travel stop. In an underground parking lot in the center of a large city: ???

I was not saying that's only valid use case. I was just factually stating what Tesla's marketing has always said. You can debate but you'd be wrong cuz that's what they said. It's not new.

 

[davewill]

I don't like the word abusive here because I don't think it is generally applicable. If your motivation to use free charging over home charging is just to save a buck, I think you're a mooch. Otherwise I think folks should do what makes them feel comfortable and happy in their car.

 

[LetsGoFast]

I consider only D to be potentially abusive in this hypothetical, personally speaking. I have no problem whatsoever with Bert charging to 90% at home and at the work supercharger, assuming no other owners are negatively impacted by his use. I'm honestly even on the fence between only D and none of the above.

I'm glad I don't have a supercharger in a location where I'd be tempted to use it, tbh. The funny thing is that I've been to the supercharger in Richmond about 20 times, and 18 of them were before I owned the car. I'm really glad that there were local users of the supercharger there, because that is how I finalized my decision to buy the car -- I quizzed them and they let me poke around their cars and they universally said how much they loved their cars. Only once did I meet someone from out of town there -- the other 8 or so people I met were all local users. If Tesla had successfully dissuaded local supercharger users a year ago, I'd probably have never bought the car.

 

[rxlawdude]

I actually have a +/- 90 mile round trip commute myself. My 2.5 year old S85's battery has degraded to about that of a new 70. Unfortunately no Supercharger nearby, but I do have workplace charging. If I charge at work, am I abusing that privileged? Kind of like Tesla, we've said our charging stations are available for free to employees, visitors and the public.

Hmm, your experience seems to be way outside the expected and reported degradation. Total miles on it?

I'm wondering when "normal Li-ion" degradation stops and "defective" warranting repair/replacement begins.

 

[MrJones390]

Using a Supercharger every day when not on a trip is abuse; however, there are exceptions and anomalies to every rule. I like the "no compromises" argument.

I voted "B, C & D" because of the "every day" aspect. Don't forget trickle charge at work should be available in a bind.

 

[mgboyes]

If his one way commute requires 40% charge then the SC is 100 miles from his house and is not "local" to him. He can use it as much as he wants (in the world where overusing "local" superchargers is against some sort of rules, which is not the world that I live in, but anyway).

However, I have no idea why he hasn't just had a charge point installed at work. Why is he wasting his time at the SC?

 

[mknox]

Hmm, your experience seems to be way outside the expected and reported degradation. Total miles on it?

I'm wondering when "normal Li-ion" degradation stops and "defective" warranting repair/replacement begins.

I'm definitely on the low side of the curve, but according to Tesla, the battery is still operating as designed. I have about 55,000 miles and see 217 Rated/246 Ideal miles @ 90% and 242 Rated at 100%.

- - - Updated - - -

I was not saying that's only valid use case. I was just factually stating what Tesla's marketing has always said. You can debate but you'd be wrong cuz that's what they said. It's not new.

No, you're right. It's what they said. Problem is, Tesla has a habit of changing their story as time goes on. Buy the pre-paid Service Plan and get hardware updates. Oops, no just software... oh and it seems everyone gets the software updates... never mind. Want warranty coverage? You need to have annual inspections. Never-mind, Elon just over-ruled that in a blog post. And so on. I think the Supercharger story has evolved from the initial "road trip" to a bit of an "it depends" when you consider where they're siting them and what company employees are saying. I think they're now trying to back away from that with the recent initiative to get HPWC charging in city parking garages and such.

 

[nwdiver]

Tesla is sold with "free unlimited" supercharger use so none of these are "abusive". (Which part of "free unlimited" don't you understand?)
However, Bert is wasting a lot of time at the supercharger when he could be out playing with Elmo.

.... Superchargers were never intended to displace home charging... Tesla may not have articulated that very well in the beginning but from day 1 that was my understanding. If you can charge at home then you should charge at home.

My employer offers free charging... I intentionally don't take any electrons I don't 'need'... I only use it to minimize the cycling stress on my car. So I use it to prep the A/C prior to leaving work and recover the energy it took to get to work. I could easily charge only at work but IMO that's abusing the system.

I worked with an Public Charging startup last year... my perception is that more ubiquitous L2 charging will make these issues largely moot. Especially 80amp charging. If the rumors are true that the MX comes standard with 60amp charging then that should help expand public L2 charging beyond the ~30 amp standard that exists now. Few people will go out of their way to hit a SC if they can opportunistically pick up as many miles where that actually want to be from public L2 chargers.

 

[jaguar36]

I'm definitely on the low side of the curve, but according to Tesla, the battery is still operating as designed. I have about 55,000 miles and see 217 Rated/246 Ideal miles @ 90% and 242 Rated at 100%.

Did they give parameters for what is "as designed" when we were looking into the car we were told that 1% per year was what was expected. We're running more like 2% per year @12,000 miles. Looks like you are more at like 3.5% albeit at much higher mileage rate.

 

[Scotty]

Let's not base SC use/abuse on your personal opinion, but on what Tesla was stating, since the SC rollout commenced. Tesla stated that SC enabled long distance driving, but also stated that SC charging on SC-enabled MS's is free and forever. Making on-the;fly or after-the-fact changes to policy is becoming the new trend with Tesla. Maybe success brreds policy change. More so, these changes are becoming the rule at Tesla, not the exception.

I won't pass judgement on your SC use; don't pass it on me. My whole point is use the SC as you see fit. I would even hazard to propose that a common theme on these threads about the use/abuse concept, is whether you charge as much as possible, at home, or use the SC. f you think using a local SC is abuse, then don't use it. If you think it's use, then use it.

Scotty

 

[mknox]

Did they give parameters for what is "as designed" when we were looking into the car we were told that 1% per year was what was expected. We're running more like 2% per year @12,000 miles. Looks like you are more at like 3.5% albeit at much higher mileage rate.

No. I asked about it at a service visit and they just told me they found "no problems". I rarely do 100% charges, but when the car was maybe 3 or 4 months old, I did one and got 265 Rated Miles on the nose. At about 6 months, I got 260 miles. At almost exactly the 1 year mark, I was getting 245. At a little past the 3 year mark, I got 242. My big drop was in the first year, and it has been a little flatter since then. My 90% numbers have followed the same pattern. I drive about 22,000 miles/year.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Incorrect. Advertised as unlimited to enable long distance travel, not to replace home charging... This has been an issue discussed on this forum and by tesla for over a year. I say bravo to letter, but boo to lousy algorithm that sent it to non-abusers.

I just posted this on the other hypothetical, so maybe it is spammy, but Tesla's message remains a bit nebulous on this question (and I think it always has). They said this in the letter itself:

The Supercharger Network's intent remains to expand and enhance your long distance travel while providing the flexibility for occasional needed use during local trips.

So they specifically cite local charging as part of the network's intent. I'd say this unambiguously eliminates the argument that it is exclusively intended for long distance travel. Of course, defining "occasional" and "needed use" is the tricky detail.

Hmm, your experience seems to be way outside the expected and reported degradation. Total miles on it?

I'm wondering when "normal Li-ion" degradation stops and "defective" warranting repair/replacement begins.

I'm betting that the oft-cited 1% per year assumes normal driving patterns. The degradation is probably tied to charge/discharge cycles as much as anything -- so his higher use is driving faster battery degradation.

 

[jerry33]

'm betting that the oft-cited 1% per year assumes normal driving patterns. The degradation is probably tied to charge/discharge cycles as much as anything -- so his higher use is driving faster battery degradation.

As far as I know, the 5% first year, 1% every year thereafter is based on generic LiIon battery charts, not Tesla chemistry plus BMS. Tesla has never really said what they expect.

 

[KJD]

In my hypothetical I'm going presume that a driver charges to 90% and is unwilling to discharge below 10%. If that affects your answer, just change the numbers in your head so that they charge to 100% and discharge to 0%. I don't intend for that to affect your analysis.

OK so lets think about this for a minute. A P85D has an EPA range of 253 miles and Burt arrives home with 25 miles in the tank. So Burt drove about 228 miles today. Lets say part of that was city and part of that was highway miles and he averaged 57 miles per hour. Burt just spent 4 hours of his day commuting to work and back.

I would say not many people I know would do this on a regular basis. Either Burt has the wrong job or Burt has the wrong house. He should change one or the other.

 

[nwdiver]

I won't pass judgement on your SC use; don't pass it on me. My whole point is use the SC as you see fit. I would even hazard to propose that a common theme on these threads about the use/abuse concept, is whether you charge as much as possible, at home, or use the SC. f you think using a local SC is abuse, then don't use it. If you think it's use, then use it.

So.... if you're on a road trip... you don't mind waiting an hour to charge 20 minutes because a bunch of people are too cheap to charge at home or too lazy to slap some solar on their roof?

If using a local supercharge doesn't inconvenience someone who needs it... I've got no problem. That's not the issue here... with the exception of Harris Ranch, most SC congestion is due to displaced home charger use.

At least the SC policy should be pretty clear once the M3 starts hitting the road.

 

[Scotty]

So.... if you're on a road trip... you don't mind waiting an hour to charge 20 minutes because a bunch of people are too cheap to charge at home or too lazy to slap some solar on their roof?

If using a local supercharge doesn't inconvenience someone who needs it... I've got no problem. That's not the issue here... with the exception of Harris Ranch, most SC congestion is due to displaced home charger use.

At least the SC policy should be pretty clear once the M3 starts hitting the road.

If I'm on a road trip, and the SC is full (like San Juan Capistrano, Harris Ranch, and the Fremont factory), I don't start querying the users whether they are local or not. If they were there before me, go ahead and charge, but please move your MS as soon as your charging is sufficient for you to unplug. A queue system would be nice; maybe tie into the mobile app, since it knows where you are, knows your VIN, charging level, current SOC, and perhaps message people about time remaining, without disclosing VIN or personal info. After all, all of this data goes through the Tesla servers.

Scotty

 

[nwdiver]

So it's ok to force travelers to wait to save a few bucks on your electric bill? Sorry... I disagree. This doesn't just hurt people trying to get from A=>B... how does this reflect on Tesla and EVs when people keep complaining about long lines at SCs...

This isn't about 'personal choice' this is about 'acting responsibly'. If locals want to use SCs off-peak and don't inconvenience people that need a charge I'm fine with that.

Local use with ~100k cars is a minor nuisance. Local use with >1M cars would be a complete cluster. Glad Tesla is clearing this up now.

 

[davidc18]

So it's ok to force travelers to wait to save a few bucks on your electric bill? Sorry... I disagree. This doesn't just hurt people trying to get from A=>B... how does this reflect on Tesla and EVs when people keep complaining about long lines at SCs...

This isn't about 'personal choice' this is about 'acting responsibly'. If locals want to use SCs off-peak and don't inconvenience people that need a charge I'm fine with that.

Local use with ~100k cars is a minor nuisance. Local use with >1M cars would be a complete cluster. Glad Tesla is clearing this up now.

The only way Tesla is going to "fix" this issue is to roll out many, many more supercharging stations. If you feel inconvenienced now, just wait. You will just love what is coming.