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Supercharging Hypothetical #2 -- Abusive or not?

Which option is abusive?

  • They are all abusive. Ernie should only charge at home.

    Votes: 30 27.0%
  • Options B & C are abusive.

    Votes: 19 17.1%
  • Only option C is abusive.

    Votes: 31 27.9%
  • None of these options are abusive.

    Votes: 31 27.9%

  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Ernie has relatively low energy consumption needs. He is able to charge his car every third day when he does his normal driving. He typically charges to 90% and recharges when he gets around 20%. He has a 40 amp charging station at home and lives close to a supercharger that is located in a busy shopping center that has both restaurants and stores that Ernie uses frequently. Ernie has never seen the supercharger full, in fact, he has never seen more than one other car charging when he is there. He is always careful to move his car when charging completes and never uses a charger if there are already 2 or more of the 8 stalls occupied.

Which of the following scenarios do you think are abusive and which do you think are acceptable? Feel free to explain your position.

A> Ernie normally does not use the superchargers even when he is shopping or dining nearby, unless he is very close to his 20% cut-off

B> Ernie makes no special effort to go to the shopping center, but anytime he is there he plugs in and tops off his car to 90%. This results in him charging at the supercharger once or twice a week.

C> Ernie tries to schedule his life so that he eats or shops whenver his car nears 20% at the mall, and he finds that he can do this three times a week on average and very rarely needs to charge at home.
 
Last edited:

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,650
8,914
Austin, TX
Ernie has a bigger problem than which supercharging pattern may be abusive or not. He should not be letting his car get to 20% every third day before recharging. Apparently Ernie didn't read the owners manual which says several times, in large print, to keep the car plugged in when possible. He should plug into his 40A charging in his garage every night whether he needs it or not, and let the battery management system manage the battery.

Remember "A connected model S is a happy Model S". The cars used to be delivered with this reminder card inside, I don't know why they stopped doing it.

And RTFM.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,601
6,446
Merced, CA
Any of those scenarios are abusive if he could use his home charger instead without forcing him to go out of his way, change plans, or take longer to execute a travel plan.

So if he came back from a long trip and needed to go on another long trip before his charger could charge him at home then that would be fine. Or if he was coming back to his local town but wasn't going home before leaving town again and the supercharger was more convenient resulting in less driving to fill up, then that would be fine.

Any time he's at home and doesn't charge up before leaving, it's abusive in any scenario if it causes him to use a supercharger that he could have avoided using by simply plugging in at home.

So any of those scenarios could be abusive. C for sure all the time and A and B if he didn't charge at home when he was already at home and could have.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Ernie has been hypnotised by aliens and is compelled to charge in his peculiar fashion. Besides, his alien overlords point out that the instruction to plug your car is includes the statement "This is particularly important if you are not planning to drive your Model S for several weeks" which implies that it isn't particularly important when you plan to drive it tomorrow.
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,650
8,914
Austin, TX
Any of those scenarios are abusive if he could use his home charger instead without forcing him to go out of his way, change plans, or take longer to execute a travel plan.

So if he came back from a long trip and needed to go on another long trip before his charger could charge him at home then that would be fine. Or if he was coming back to his local town but wasn't going home before leaving town again and the supercharger was more convenient resulting in less driving to fill up, then that would be fine.

Any time he's at home and doesn't charge up before leaving, it's abusive in any scenario if it causes him to use a supercharger that he could have avoided using by simply plugging in at home.

So any of those scenarios could be abusive. C for sure all the time and A and B if he didn't charge at home when he was already at home and could have.

My thoughts exactly. If you have home charging, plug it in when you get home. Don't look at your SOC, don't think about it, just plug in. It should become part of your routine when you get out of the car in your garage.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
My only issue with the hypotheticals is the use of the word "abusive". I guess I'd like "inappropriate use" as a more accurate term.

I actually thought about that quite a bit. My thinking is that abusive conveys the sense that is misuse to a degree that might justify Tesla action, but I decided not to make that explicit because then you get into a lot of rules lawyering. I didn't want to just say "inappropriate" because that sort includes "Ernie is OK to do it, but I would never do something like that" which I think is a completely different question.

- - - Updated - - -

My thoughts exactly. If you have home charging, plug it in when you get home. Don't look at your SOC, don't think about it, just plug in. It should become part of your routine when you get out of the car in your garage.

In your view then, any use of supercharging when you use fewer miles daily that your charged range would be abusive? If you can charge at home to 90% every day and never get below 60% on any given day -- you should never use a local supercharger. Is that accurate?
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,601
6,446
Merced, CA
I too might change the terminology of abusive. Abusive to me would be more like intentionally blocking a supercharger stall long after you've finished charging because you're in a movie and can't be bothered to come move your car from the gas pump after you've finished pumping your gas.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
So any of those scenarios could be abusive. C for sure all the time and A and B if he didn't charge at home when he was already at home and could have.

Does this mean if Ernie charged to 90% at home and was down to 80% when he arrived at the mall that he would be OK to charge? Or would that still be abusive because he has more than enough charge to make it home where he could charge again?
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,601
6,446
Merced, CA
By the way, this poll would get a lot more votes "they are all abusive" if the "ernie should only charge at home" wasn't tacked on the end of it. There are plenty of valid scenarios where Ernie might need to use a supercharger. Perhaps it should be changed to "ernie should always charge at home when he can and it doesn't make him go out of his way or take extra time".
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,650
8,914
Austin, TX
I actually thought about that quite a bit. My thinking is that abusive conveys the sense that is misuse to a degree that might justify Tesla action, but I decided not to make that explicit because then you get into a lot of rules lawyering. I didn't want to just say "inappropriate" because that sort includes "Ernie is OK to do it, but I would never do something like that" which I think is a completely different question.

- - - Updated - - -



In your view then, any use of supercharging when you use fewer miles daily that your charged range would be abusive? If you can charge at home to 90% every day and never get below 60% on any given day -- you should never use a local supercharger. Is that accurate?
That's accurate. Having a supercharger nearby shouldn't change your home charging habits.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,601
6,446
Merced, CA
Does this mean if Ernie charged to 90% at home and was down to 80% when he arrived at the mall that he would be OK to charge? Or would that still be abusive because he has more than enough charge to make it home where he could charge again?

No. I think it's fine in that case. I think if he charged at home to the maximum daily and then drove to the mall that he should feel free to top off. He'll never know when he might receive that emergency call that calls him out of town and he needs to leave now.

I also think that if he's coming home from work and goes straight to the mall for dinner or shopping or something, that he's also free to charge up. On the other hand, if he's going just to get a free charge and he wouldn't have gone to the mall otherwise and would have just gone straight home and had more than enough to make it, that would be inappropriate.

As long as he's always charging at home when he can, then he should feel free to use the SC to top off. In that scenarios, he won't normally take long to charge because he'll already be mostly charged anyways.
 

Tamar

Member
Mar 23, 2015
177
8
St. Paul, MN
I guess Elon's letter worked. I wonder if this poll had been posted a year ago, if anyone would has said anything but D. Especially given that the Superchargers are not in use by someone else when Ernie is charging. I would not go out of my way to charge any more than I'd go to a "free laundromat" if one existed...what a hassle when you can just wash your clothes at home.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
By the way, this poll would get a lot more votes "they are all abusive" if the "ernie should only charge at home" wasn't tacked on the end of it.

I see your point, but I cannot change the poll now. It seems to me that if the only reason people did not choose "they are all abusive" was the "Ernie should only charge at home" sentence, those people would choose B&C are abusive instead -- however at the time I write this only one person has done so out of 15.
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,650
8,914
Austin, TX
No. I think it's fine in that case. I think if he charged at home to the maximum daily and then drove to the mall that he should feel free to top off. He'll never know when he might receive that emergency call that calls him out of town and he needs to leave now.

As long as he's always charging at home when he can, then he should feel free to use the SC to top off. In that scenarios, he won't normally take long to charge because he'll already be mostly charged anyways.
Absolutely not. Superchargers are not for "topping off" from an 80% charge when you live nearby and have charging at home! If he was on his way out of town suddenly that's different, but not because "you never know" when you might need those extra few miles. There will never be enough superchargers to accommodate everyone with a Tesla who thinks it's ok to "top off" when he has plenty of range and charges at home.

Also with the taper, 80% is about where you would stop supercharging unless you need the extra range. It's not a starting point.
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,650
8,914
Austin, TX
I guess Elon's letter worked. I wonder if this poll had been posted a year ago, if anyone would has said anything but D. Especially given that the Superchargers are not in use by someone else when Ernie is charging. I would not go out of my way to charge any more than I'd go to a "free laundromat" if one existed...what a hassle when you can just wash your clothes at home.

Yes, almost everyone would have said anything but D. We were around when superchargers were announced to facilitate long distance travel.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Absolutely not. Superchargers are not for "topping off" from an 80% charge when you live nearby and have charging at home!

I think that is the hardest line I've seen expressed here. I always charge overnight at home, but I would think nothing of topping off if I happened to be shopping at a supercharger equipped mall. Its interesting to see the wide range of views.

In the real world, I don't think that the scenario has ever arisen for me, because the supercharger location in my town is on the wrong side of the city and I very rarely find myself nearby. However, once I was driving home on a trip and had sufficient reserve to make it back to my home charger, but I was also hungry. I stopped for dinner and plugged in and got a full charge while I ate. If it was at a location I frequented, I'd probably charge whenever I was there.

What if you stop at a business that provides free level 2 charging. You don't really need a charge, you'd be able to make it home no problem, but you think "free electrons!" Ethically OK to charge for free there or not?
 

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