Supercharging slowdown killing me

[jeffro01]

Okay so before I say what I'm going to say, be prepared to be offended...

I find it hard to understand why anyone here is surprised or outraged or anything...??? From what I can tell him this thread, these are all older cars and we all know batteries degrade over time. Thus, how aggressively they can be charged also has to change over time with that. You knew that when you purchased the car, but only now are you concerned about it? Buy a new Tesla and your problems will be solved, it's no different than any other car ever made, they degrade over time. One poster even talked about how her ICE fuel economy went down over time, same thing. Those of you with newer Teslas need not worry, at least for now.

This is why I lease, every 3 years I get a new Tesla so I never have to worry about any of this...

Jeff

 

[maximizese]

Okay so before I say what I'm going to say, be prepared to be offended...

I find it hard to understand why anyone here is surprised or outraged or anything...??? From what I can tell him this thread, these are all older cars and we all know batteries degrade over time. Thus, how aggressively they can be charged also has to change over time with that. You knew that when you purchased the car, but only now are you concerned about it? Buy a new Tesla and your problems will be solved, it's no different than any other car ever made, they degrade over time. One poster even talked about how her ICE fuel economy went down over time, same thing. Those of you with newer Teslas need not worry, at least for now.

This is why I lease, every 3 years I get a new Tesla so I never have to worry about any of this...

Jeff

I'm not offended, but am surprised at your inability to understand why other folks are not happy. There also seems to be a false narrative with respect to degradation, which should be a natural concern/understand for anyone buying a consumer good insofar as a product tends to have an expected lifecycle and utility value. The issue that most folks have is that they purchased a car (most would argue at a premium) and the company released a software update to limit the usefulness of the product AFTER the good was sold. Beyond that Tesla advertised nameplates that are arguably inaccurate, range distances that are unachievable, and Supercharging speeds that no longer exist...all of which are not due to an expected normal state of degradation, but because of a manufacturer software update with little explanation both ad hoc and post hoc

As for your ICE comparison, this would be the equivalent of BMW going to each M3 owner and adding restrictions to fuel filler neck, restricting the fuel tank capacity, and replacing the fuel injectors with smaller output, resulting in less power output, less range, and longer refueling times. So much for the ultimate driving machine...it's a diminished from what it once was by the actions of the manufacturer after the vehicle was sold for its performance and range. It's not a perfect analogy but it'll do.

 

[jeffro01]

I'm not offended, but am surprised at your inability to understand why other folks are not happy. There also seems to be a false narrative with respect to degradation, which should be a natural concern/understand for anyone buying a consumer good insofar as a product tends to have an expected lifecycle and utility value. The issue that most folks have is that they purchased a car (most would argue at a premium) and the company released a software update to limit the usefulness of the product AFTER the good was sold. Beyond that Tesla advertised nameplates that are arguably inaccurate, range distances that are unachievable, and Supercharging speeds that no longer exist...all of which are not due to an expected normal state of degradation, but because of a manufacturer software update with little explanation both ad hoc and post hoc

As for your ICE comparison, this would be the equivalent of BMW going to each M3 owner and adding restrictions to fuel filler neck, restricting the fuel tank capacity, and replacing the fuel injectors with smaller output, resulting in less power output, less range, and longer refueling times. So much for the ultimate driving machine...it's a diminished from what it once was by the actions of the manufacturer after the vehicle was sold for its performance and range. It's not a perfect analogy but it'll do.

Fair enough. Understood.

I remember back in the early days of software updates at Tesla how amazing it was and a small minority used to constantly remind everyone that it's great until it isn't... Any changes that negative affect the owner, naturally this one included as well as many others that go without mentioning, certainly can make people refuse to update going forward.

Jeff

 

[Darren Donovan]

Fair enough. Understood.

I remember back in the early days of software updates at Tesla how amazing it was and a small minority used to constantly remind everyone that it's great until it isn't... Any changes that negative affect the owner, naturally this one included as well as many others that go without mentioning, certainly can make people refuse to update going forward.

Jeff

For sure! So much for the line "Tesla cars are always getting better post purchase due to awesome OTA updates, NOT obsolete like the ICE cars", Lol.

 

[SSedan]

Okay so before I say what I'm going to say, be prepared to be offended...

I find it hard to understand why anyone here is surprised or outraged or anything...??? From what I can tell him this thread, these are all older cars and we all know batteries degrade over time. Thus, how aggressively they can be charged also has to change over time with that. You knew that when you purchased the car, but only now are you concerned about it? Buy a new Tesla and your problems will be solved, it's no different than any other car ever made, they degrade over time. One poster even talked about how her ICE fuel economy went down over time, same thing. Those of you with newer Teslas need not worry, at least for now.

This is why I lease, every 3 years I get a new Tesla so I never have to worry about any of this...

Jeff

So how upset will you be when your lease cost spikes because nobody wants to buy a 3yo Tesla due to them stripping capabilities from them after a few years?

 

[jeffro01]

So how upset will you be when your lease cost spikes because nobody wants to buy a 3yo Tesla due to them stripping capabilities from them after a few years?

Considering how limited this issue appears to be, not at all. Besides, Tesla leases are already stupid expensive anyhow so it comes with the territory. You have to keep in mind the average buyer has no idea TMC even exists...

Jeff

 

[SSedan]

The batterygate chargergate issues are not small and should give everyone pause about what Tesla will do to other cars later.

Is Tesla knowingly abusively charging cars as a sales tactic only to take away the capacity later?

 

[Cape Coddess]

I may be naive but I don't believe it's about the bottom line. I think that, being such a new technology, they're just discovering issues they want to avoid. Like fire. If this is the case, those that are affected are due a safe replacement battery. Hopefully Tesla is working on a recall right now.

As I type, my car is charging off the nema 14-50 at 10 kilowatts. The normal is 30 kilowatts. This is delaying my trip by an hour and a half.

There is a class action suit in the works but it is for 85s and below. Mine is a 90. Is anyone else here a 90? Or above?

 

[SmartElectric]

my car is charging off the nema 14-50 at 10 kilowatts. The normal is 30 kilowatts

40Amps at 240V is the charge rate for a 14-50 outlet. That is 9600 watts. Just about 10 kW.

it is impossible to get 30 kW from a standard AC single phase North American outlet.

 

[SmartElectric]

they took off TPMS reset option with v9. I'm fighting that issue now.

Saw this recently. The wheel configuration menu to change the look of the wheels apparently also automatically resets the TPMS. Also when you have older TPMS that have done 4 winters the sensors fail when stored in non climate controlled environments. Tesla repaired my two failed sensors and the whee condig change did properly reset TPMS. FYI

 

[David99]

The reduction in charge speed is not degradation. The battery's ability to hold energy is reduced over time, that's degradation. That is a physical limitation happening inside the cells and there is nothing anyone can do to change that once it has happened. The charge rate is entirely controlled by the BMS and how Tesla programs it. The cells don't change over time to a slower charge rate. That's a decision that Tesla made.

Tesla never told me (or any other owner) that their car will charge slower and slower at the supercharger over time. I remember Elon saying in 2014 that the current supercharge rate is actually conservative. There was no reason to believe it would be reduced dramatically.

My charge times are now aprox 40-60% longer. When I have to charge to very high level (winter, long distance to next station) it is more than double. A full charge used to take 1:20 min, it now takes more than 4 hours. 'why would you even charge to 100% at a supercharger?'. Well, because Tesla has crippled my car down to 200 miles of rated range. In unfavorable conditions that's barely enough to do a 130 mile leg between two superchargers.

Let's just be honest here. Tesla has been pushing the battery technology to the limits to be the leader in the EV world. Now that the early cars are getting older and their batteries are having issues, it might prove that they pushed it a little too far. Crippling down the old cars isn't the right thing to do. Tesla needs to stand behind their promise of 8 years unlimited miles warranty, not limit the old cars down.

Here is a charge graph from my car. This is the best I get at this point. Most of the time I'm getting far less.

 

[cpa]

The reduction in charge speed is not degradation. The battery's ability to hold energy is reduced over time, that's degradation. That is a physical limitation happening inside the cells and there is nothing anyone can do to change that once it has happened. The charge rate is entirely controlled by the BMS and how Tesla programs it. The cells don't change over time to a slower charge rate. That's a decision that Tesla made.

Tesla never told me (or any other owner) that their car will charge slower and slower at the supercharger over time. I remember Elon saying in 2014 that the current supercharge rate is actually conservative. There was no reason to believe it would be reduced dramatically.

My charge times are now aprox 40-60% longer. When I have to charge to very high level (winter, long distance to next station) it is more than double. A full charge used to take 1:20 min, it now takes more than 4 hours. 'why would you even charge to 100% at a supercharger?'. Well, because Tesla has crippled my car down to 200 miles of rated range. In unfavorable conditions that's barely enough to do a 130 mile leg between two superchargers.

Let's just be honest here. Tesla has been pushing the battery technology to the limits to be the leader in the EV world. Now that the early cars are getting older and their batteries are having issues, it might prove that they pushed it a little too far. Crippling down the old cars isn't the right thing to do. Tesla needs to stand behind their promise of 8 years unlimited miles warranty, not limit the old cars down.

Here is a charge graph from my car. This is the best I get at this point. Most of the time I'm getting far less.
View attachment 485929

Your graph more or less coincides with my pencil and paper notes that I took over the past week. It seems that from about 20% to 70% the overall rate is much slower than before. Here is a brief recap of some charging sessions:

From 35% to 57% SOC took 20 minutes, starting at 60kW and ending at 42kW.
From 25% to 47% SOC took 16 minutes, starting at 72kW and ending at 60kW. (This was urban style, so 72 was max.)
From 39% to 64% SOC took 28 minutes, starting at 62kW and ending at 42kW.
From 45% to 82% SOC took 41 minutes, starting at 58kW and ending at 30kW.
From 46% to 83% SOC took 42 minutes, starting at 58kW and ending at 30kW.
From 24% to 51% SOC took 21 minutes, starting at 76kW and ending at 55 kW.

The only time I arrived with a low SOC, I was the second at a shared stall, and the charge was 30kW for over 30 minutes until the other car charged deep into its taper.

I did notice that I plugged into an 80A/240V HPWC in Palm Desert. By 82-83%, the amperage started to dwindle. When I unplugged at 85%, the amperage had dropped to 70.

 

[SSedan]

I will have to try that one of my chargers is wounded(dropped a phase" so P85 only pulls 72amps but I can test at home.

 

[Cape Coddess]

40Amps at 240V is the charge rate for a 14-50 outlet. That is 9600 watts. Just about 10 kW.

it is impossible to get 30 kW from a standard AC single phase North American outlet.

Woops, you're right, my bad. I meant miles per hour not kilowatts. I was getting 28 to 32 before the update and now it's 10.

Also I need to retract everything I said about supercharging my 90 pack. Having charged out in the wild on a trip over the past two days I see that it's performing beautifully and as it did when I first picked it up. I don't know why the Cape Cod superchargers behave differently than the ones off Cape.

 

[CSFTN]

Woops, you're right, my bad. I meant miles per hour not kilowatts. I was getting 28 to 32 before the update and now it's 10.

Also I need to retract everything I said about supercharging my 90 pack. Having charged out in the wild on a trip over the past two days I see that it's performing beautifully and as it did when I first picked it up. I don't know why the Cape Cod superchargers behave differently than the ones off Cape.

I haven't read that any if this stuff slows your standard level 2 AC charging. If your mph charge has gone from 30 to 10, I'd bet you or your device has set the amps very low, or there's a wiring problem in the wall lowering the voltage. Why don't you post a picture of your charging screen so we can see the rate, the voltage, and the amps.

 

[Cape Coddess]

I haven't read that any if this stuff slows your standard level 2 AC charging. If your mph charge has gone from 30 to 10, I'd bet you or your device has set the amps very low, or there's a wiring problem in the wall lowering the voltage. Why don't you post a picture of your charging screen so we can see the rate, the voltage, and the amps.

Good idea. I'll do that when I get back. I think I saw that the amps had dropped to 12 but can't trust the old memory. I didn't change it from its usual 48. Is it automatic?

 

[Gwgan]

Almost 4 year old 90 battery in a P X used to have max supercharge power of 120, then 110, now 94. Not as bad as some here, yet. Long trips are taking longer with more frequent stops with slower supercharging in the 10%-50% range.
I do think slowing charge rate by software updates is not the right approach if battery safety is the issue. Do the revised 100kWh batteries do this, too?
Just drove through upstate NY with temps as low as 3°F. I have an iOS Shortcut to report on battery heater state and there was no change with Range Mode on or off or with Supercharger targeted navigation. Range Mode on just meant frosted windows so I mostly kept it off. Range Mode + cool defrost worked but that defeats the purpose.

 

[Rocky_H]

As I type, my car is charging off the nema 14-50 at 10 kilowatts. The normal is 30 kilowatts.

40Amps at 240V is the charge rate for a 14-50 outlet. That is 9600 watts. Just about 10 kW.

Woops, you're right, my bad. I meant miles per hour not kilowatts. I was getting 28 to 32 before the update and now it's 10.

No, you're still not getting it. I'm pretty sure your units changed, but you weren't paying attention to read that and notice it. The numbers are too coincidental.

I've seen this exact same question/complaint from people over the years here. They don't seem to realize that if they change the setting in the display from "Distance" to "Energy", it does more than just changing the main battery meter from rated miles to %. It also changes the units in the charging screen. That goes from miles per hour (about 30) to kiloWatts (about 10). So I am pretty certain that your display settings just got changed, so you're seeing 10kW now instead of 30 miles per hour, which are representations of the same charging speed.

 

[Cape Coddess]

No, you're still not getting it. I'm pretty sure your units changed, but you weren't paying attention to read that and notice it. The numbers are too coincidental.

I've seen this exact same question/complaint from people over the years here. They don't seem to realize that if they change the setting in the display from "Distance" to "Energy", it does more than just changing the main battery meter from rated miles to %. It also changes the units in the charging screen. That goes from miles per hour (about 30) to kiloWatts (about 10). So I am pretty certain that your display settings just got changed, so you're seeing 10kW now instead of 30 miles per hour, which are representations of the same charging speed.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[meomyo]

Mine does the same thing. But. I don’t really mind it. When I had my first Tesla in 13 it was completely normal to sit at a super for an hour plus because I was the only option to make it to the next leg which sometimes even leaving its max battery was barely doable.
I walked away from Tesla for 3 years and can tell you I’d rather spend a little extra time at a super than sit in gas lines at Costco.

I also look at this.....I had a 2008 chevrolet that when new got almost 40 miles to the gallon. By 25k on the odo I was down to 36. By the time I was at 80k i was down to 32. By the time we got rid of it at 140k it was barely getting 30. Less in winter. All this equals more time at gas stations and more $. I questoined the dealership and they said ya that’s normal. I just kept really good records most don’t.

Lol..i sit at costco gas and fill our 2006 mdx..like 40 to $50 and only 115 minutes wait and fill...even if 320 min no biggie compared to slowwww supercharging on a trip!