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Supercharging speed of sr model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Rogue one, Aug 12, 2017.

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  1. Rogue one

    Rogue one Member

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    qucik question, will the short range version of the model 3 be limited to 60kW or less in order to put it on the half price rate in two billing rate state super charger lets cations? The math seems to work out I think?

    60kW for 30 mins Would be 30kWh or roughly 130 miles on the short range version.

    If so this gives a significant cost advantage to the short range tesla while supercharging in states with the 2 rate system as you should spend the entire time charging at half off while the long range version will spend a significant amount of time just above the high price rate.

    Sorry if this has already be discussed I couldn't find it anywhere.
     
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  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Charge rate is dependent on battery SoC. The larger battery models can SC hop without using the last 20-30% of SoC and mostly avoid power throttling. So while they may pay double for 80-90 kW, you are charging at 40-50 kW

    It is easy to imagine a situation where the SR pays the highest cost: just over 60 kW charge rate. I counsel avoiding these micro-arithmetic questions and enjoy the ride instead. The costs per kWh will average out pretty closely for most Tesla owners and are more than reasonable for road tripping. If you are trying to finagle an overall cheap lifetime fueling for yourself via Superchargers I recommend you do something else, like buy a Prius Prime.
     
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  3. Rogue one

    Rogue one Member

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    No I do plan on buying a model 3, it's not that the cost of supercharging is significant in any way. As it will be significantly cheaper than gas especially considering my utility company charges $0.07/kWh at night. I'm just agonizing over short range battery vs long range as we often take 150-200 mile day/weekend trips almost all of our destinations are on super charger routes and almost every over night/weekend location can offer atleast 110 volt charging even at 3-4 mph charging rate that would add 80-100 miles of range over a weekend. I was simply doing the math based on Tesla's own claim of the short range charging at 130 miles in 30 mins, I though that sounded like 60kW was a max charging rate perhaps I was wrong? Not that it matters much I just tend to obsess over these things I'm sure once I get the car I'll just enjoy it and not care anymore. Haha
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Let's see ...
    A 400 mile trip is about half charged from home
    So 200 miles via SC
    Say 50 kWh
    If you are unlucky with the SR you will pay 5-10 cents/kWh surcharge that works out to $2.5 - $5 a trip.
     
  5. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    Hi. Check out the video below. There is a big difference between 60 kWh and 85 kWh Model S. The numbers for the Model 3 should be similar because the battery capacities are similar. The 130/170 miles in 30 minutes Tesla advertises looks too optimistic to me. The reality might be closer to 100/150 miles.

     
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  6. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Except there's always this which was slowed down due to a model S charging in the stall next to it...
    [​IMG]

    I think I can make out 169 mi/hr. This is on par with what both Tesla and Elon have said about it charging at a mi/hr rate close to the S100D when you consider the power was cut in half...

    We are going to need a person with a production model to take a photo while supercharging.
     
  7. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    You are mixing up per hour with per 30 minutes. This is what the presskit page here says:

    Standard Battery Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes
    Long Range Battery Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes
     
  8. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    #8 JeffK, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    Like I said power was cut in half. Half of 60 min is 30 min.
    Stalls full
    [​IMG]

    Also consider just a gross estimation...the nearly 80 kWh Model 3 has a 20% range more than the older 85 kWh. In the video you posted it showed 136.704 mi in 30 min... If the charging rates are similar then 136.702 * 1.2 = 164 mi in 30 minutes for the LR model.
     
  9. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    I have looked at some more data points and it turns out the 60 kWh in Bjorn's video was supercharging slower than usual. Also, I forgot about Elon's comment comparing the Model 3 LR to 100 kWh Model S. I remember that now. In short, it looks like Tesla's 130/170 mi in 30 minutes might be realistic after all.
     
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  10. Rogue one

    Rogue one Member

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    I was only asking because the tiered supercharger rate seemed arbitrary. (How or why did they pick 60 as the half price cutoff)

    Wisconsin rate (my home state)
    $0.20 per minute above 60 kW
    $0.10 per minute at or below 60 kW

    But if the short range version supercharging maxes out around 60kW then it makes some sense, as people might feel confused or cheated somehow if they charged at say 65kW and pay double the price as opposed to sub 60kW. We have to remember tesla is moving into the mass market here some people will drive across town to "save" $0.01 on a gallon of gas. It will be interesting to see when the sr model 3 hits the road if it is infact caped at or below 60kW as a maximum rate of charge.
     
  11. wwu123

    wwu123 Member

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    Key thing is those are not per kwh rates, those are per min rates. 60kw may be arbitrary, but at least at 60kw the math is easy, each minute charges one kwh, so $0.10/min = $0.10/kwh. But you'll almost never pay exactly that.

    Let's say the "worst-case" is the SR has a max rate of 62kw supercharging, putting it just into the higher tier - well, it's hard to stay at that 62kw max rate for more than 15-20 minutes, because the SoC builds up, and the taper starts. Once you hit the taper, the taper is fairly continuous - so it's not like you're at 60kW for the rest of the charging session - you'll be doing 59kW for a minute or so, then 58, 57, 56, but still paying $0.10 per minute. So you only truly pay the best rate of $0.10/kwh for one minute.

    If you're road-tripping or long-commuting, generally you don't want to hang around too long on the taper, so the $0.20/min is all you'll consider. If you're in the new urban dweller scenario where the SC is your primary fueling station, and you really need to "top off" to 90% of more for the week ahead, then after 30 minutes you might be tapered down to 40kw and are actually paying $0.15/kwh, by 45 min you may be at 20kw and are paying $0.30/kwh at that point, and waiting longer for each kwh to boot.

    And due to the way the Superchargers work, even pulling in with an empty battery, many times you'll never see above 60kW for one minute let alone 15-20 minutes. More likely instead of people happy they're only paying "half-price" for those electrons, they'll be complaining here about the slow Supercharging speeds they're getting.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    It's an interesting speculation, one I also tend to accept as a best case.

    The Model S 60 charged from near zero to 80% (47 kWh) in 56 minutes for an average of 0.8 kWh a minute. If moderate speed highway travel is 4.5 miles a kWh then overall charging speed is 4.5*0.8 = 3.6 miles a minute and a rate of 3.6*60 = 216 miles an hour.

    The trick here of course is that you cannot sit for an hour and collect 216 miles; the charging visits have to be optimized. I keep hoping that the Model 3 batteries will show little taper until 70% SoC but that is probably a dream unfulfilled unless Tesla has improved cooling. It is worthwhile to note that the 60 kWh model peak charging rate approached 80 kW, though not for long. It did hold 70 kW for a while
     
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Per kWh
     
  14. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Depends where you are.
    Some states it's per kWh some states it's per min. Where it's per minute there are two rates one rate for 60 kW or under... which, if you had another Tesla in the stall next to you and getting less than full power it makes sense to charge less when not charging nearly as fast. The higher rate is for higher than 60 kW.

     
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  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    No, I think that charging will be limited to about 60kW because that's all the battery will take. The reported numbers are consistent between the two batteries.
     
  16. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    #16 JeffK, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    This is not true though...

    As evidenced by the photo posted above showing a Model 3 charging at 70kW when next to an occupied stall.
     
  17. Rogue one

    Rogue one Member

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    This is true for the long range model, but the short range model is still a bit of an unknown.
     
  18. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    You may say it's unknown if you like. For the rest of us, the bit we should be most interested in is how many miles in how much time which is listed on the presskit page:

    Standard:
    • Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes
    Long Range:
    • Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes
    Obviously results will vary depending on SoC...
     
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