Surviving the PG&E test?

[aesculus]

Okay thanks. That’s the missing piece. I’m not trying to have my cake and eat it too, but nobody explained that the alternative source requirement had an expiration date. Without it you’d be better off just denying the tax rebate at all because long-term I’d save more than the $5000 in energy savings.

I am now totally confused about this.

• If there is an expiration date on limiting your stored energy only to solar generated for 5 years what will allow it to be grid based after the 5 years?
• If you have solar can you opt out of this limitation if you don't take the credit? In other words if I don't take the ITC would I be able to arbitrage grid storing off peak and sending it back during peak? My solar net is so small it may not really be worth much.

 

[miimura]

I am now totally confused about this.

• If there is an expiration date on limiting your stored energy only to solar generated for 5 years what will allow it to be grid based after the 5 years?
• If you have solar can you opt out of this limitation if you don't take the credit? In other words if I don't take the ITC would I be able to arbitrage grid storing off peak and sending it back during peak? My solar net is so small it may not really be worth much.

This is totally controlled by Tesla software. I have never heard of Tesla allowing people to decline the ITC and allow the system to charge from the grid in the USA. As far as I know, there has never been a statement from Tesla saying they will allow it after 5 years passed either.

I suggest you base your decision to buy or not on present features and behavior and not on something that might happen in the future.

I have a small solar system and find the functionality acceptable.

 

[jboy210]

Just curious. Did anyone effected by the PSPS and with a PowerWall lose power for a significant time? Or did you sort sail through it?

We had two days of outage with 2 additional incidents in which we were list as "possibly needing to shut down power". And even days later are a bit frazzled by the whole thing. If this is the "new normal" I will gladly pay for a Powerwall, if it really does provide the piece of mind I hope it would.

 

[bmah]

We had two days of outage with 2 additional incidents in which we were list as "possibly needing to shut down power". And even days later are a bit frazzled by the whole thing. If this is the "new normal" I will gladly pay for a Powerwall, if it really does provide the piece of mind I hope it would.[/QUOTE]

I would say for us it was somewhere in between. We always had power available for lights, HVAC, refrigerator, cooking, network/servers, etc. But we also used the advance notice to run all the high-load appliances (do all the laundry, run the dishwasher, charge the cars), so we could minimize our electric usage. Because our daily solar output doesn't cover our usage, during the outage we were drawing down the reserves in the Powerwalls. Admittedly I was getting a little nervous towards the end, but I think we could have held out a few more days if we had to (our part of the grid was down for 61 hours). Next time I think we'll be a little more aggressive in shedding loads at the start.

Bruce.

 

[Ikan_Besar]

One other comment: the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) has a five year vesting period. The hope is that Tesla will eventually allow grid charging for customers who are fully vested. ..

I am aware of the five year vesting period of the ITC for commercial projects. Are you saying it also applies to homeowners claiming the ITC for residential photovoltaic?

That would suck for those who move out of their homes and would have to pay back the tax credit.

 

[patrick40363]

Just curious. Did anyone effected by the PSPS and with a PowerWall lose power for a significant time? Or did you sort sail through it?

We had two days of outage with 2 additional incidents in which we were list as "possibly needing to shut down power". And even days later are a bit frazzled by the whole thing. If this is the "new normal" I will gladly pay for a Powerwall, if it really does provide the piece of mind I hope it would.

96 hours. Glad I had 2 powerwalls,

 

[cwied]

I am aware of the five year vesting period of the ITC for commercial projects. Are you saying it also applies to homeowners claiming the ITC for residential photovoltaic?

That would suck for those who move out of their homes and would have to pay back the tax credit.

When I did the research of what my obligations were, I found indications that there was only a five year requirement for the 100% solar charging and a vesting schedule in that context. I'm assuming that either transfer of ownership doesn't trigger a clawback or it's ambiguous. It's possible that whoever reached that conclusion was mistaken, but it seems unlikely to me that it would be a perpetual requirement. If it were and the new owner of the system charged from the grid, it seems that would require a claw back too.

Given that the whole eligibility of storage in a non-commercial context is based on an IRS letter, I'm guessing the rules are not necessarily clear on all the details. In any case I don't believe the IRS would claw back ITC payments from homeowners who sell their house before the five years are up.

 

[Ulmo]

Just curious. Did anyone effected by the PSPS and with a PowerWall lose power for a significant time? Or did you sort sail through it?

Sail.

I had two problems, neither because of the PowerWalls, but both due to insufficient PowerWalls and insufficient solar (none in one case, and undersized system in the other):

• Comcast's batteries on the pole only lasted a few hours, so I had no Internet. Comcast's pole power units should use solar backed up batteries, but don't.
• A relative didn't understand when I said SIX TIMES to limit electric use, and kept plugging in their PHEV when we didn't have enough power. I had to argue, and go unplug it, on multiple occasions. I think I finally won when I said "There is less electricity, so use more gas." I could have gotten into the fine points of plugging in at a charging station elsewhere, but I think that would have been useless since they were acting dumb and the working ones by their work were likely all stuffed due to the power outage, so way beyond a simple conversation.

I would say for us it was somewhere in between. We always had power available for lights, HVAC, refrigerator, cooking, network/servers, etc. But we also used the advance notice to run all the high-load appliances (do all the laundry, run the dishwasher, charge the cars), so we could minimize our electric usage. Because our daily solar output doesn't cover our usage, during the outage we were drawing down the reserves in the Powerwalls. Admittedly I was getting a little nervous towards the end, but I think we could have held out a few more days if we had to (our part of the grid was down for 61 hours). Next time I think we'll be a little more aggressive in shedding loads at the start.

Bruce.

I did very similar. I told everyone to use as much electricity before the shutoff as possible since we won't have enough for everything if it does get shut off. So, I did bunches of laundry, and we all did all sorts of electric using things. I practically had no clothes left to wash by the time the power went out.

Then, we immediately aggressively started foregoing a lot of electric use when the power went out. I made the point many times, and I even went around shutting off LED lights. I said to live normally except for big energy users which we would have to plan, and don't leave anything on when not in the room using it at that moment. I ended up doing one load of laundry using only solar and battery since there was too much waiting. The only time we got close to running out of electricity was when a relative didn't listen to my ban on charging cars, but I caught that in time.

 

[Ulmo]

I have solar and power walls at my home in SOCAL. If I have a Power Failure my house is fully backed up. But not sure I would still have internet. It would depend on if my ISP is fully backed up, right?

Those in PG&E with the power outages, if you have power backup will you still have internet? If so, who is your ISP?

Comcast: telephone pole amplifier power supply backup battery ran out. I found the unit on a pole and where it gets its power. I bet if I supplied it 120VAC, it would run again as well as recharge its battery.

AT&T DSL: A neighbor who had no electricity except for briefly on some backup generator did test their AT&T DSL line, and it was still working. As a result, I ended up ordering an AT&T POTS line, but they told me it goes all the way back to the CO, which around here is too far for DSL, but not too far for a DSLAM. We'll see what I can do about backup. I might have to dust off my 64,000bps POTS modem. Also, I want to consider wireless Internet.

The only wireless phone company that works here is Verizon, and I just cancelled them because they sent me too many scam calls (since both Apple and Verizon refused to block them). Some cell providers went down during the power outage, too.

I already got a HAM radio to replace the phone for emergency and logistics purposes, but I found out that now that I'm volunteering with some emergency communication teams, I think I should be able to help people make phone calls during that time, so I've come full circle on that back to POTS. I'm very disappointed. I'm interested to see how much politics causes SpaceX's StarLink to have downtime, as well as the occasional technical failures and wars that take it out. Also, they may not have reliable service (i.e., too many interrupting scammers, too many censorship cutouts, etc.). Depending on how that goes, I'll get rid of my POTS line again.

 

[aesculus]

A relative didn't understand when I said SIX TIMES to limit electric use, and kept plugging in their PHEV when we didn't have enough power

They have circuit breakers for these types of people.

 

[astrorob]

AT&T DSL: A neighbor who had no electricity except for briefly on some backup generator did test their AT&T DSL line, and it was still working. As a result, I ended up ordering an AT&T POTS line, but they told me it goes all the way back to the CO, which around here is too far for DSL, but not too far for a DSLAM. We'll see what I can do about backup. I might have to dust off my 64,000bps POTS modem. Also, I want to consider wireless Internet.

same experience here - comcast died immediately for a very wide swath of the east bay which makes me think the shutdown actually killed some of their equipment somehow. DSL connected to the CO stayed up throughout, but i didn't have enough UPS capacity to keep it running any appreciable amount of time. the CO was likely outside the power shutdown area so this is not necessarily representative of AT&T's backup power capability in the CO.

the psychological impact of this shutdown was huge and i'm willing to spend whatever it takes to avoid that happening again.

 

[jboy210]

same experience here - comcast died immediately for a very wide swath of the east bay which makes me think the shutdown actually killed some of their equipment somehow. DSL connected to the CO stayed up throughout, but i didn't have enough UPS capacity to keep it running any appreciable amount of time. the CO was likely outside the power shutdown area so this is not necessarily representative of AT&T's backup power capability in the CO.

the psychological impact of this shutdown was huge and i'm willing to spend whatever it takes to avoid that happening again.

Xfinity stayed up for us in Pleasanton. But you needed power on your end to keep you equipment up. Luckily my neighbor has a huge motor home with a diesel generator that powers his ovens, indoor and outdoor TVs, etc. He was kind enough to power up the Xfinity gear and most importantly my tankless water heater.

 

[Merrill]

Here is something to think about, I have a real problem with this PSPS from Pacific Graft and Extortion. Some people cannot be without power and cannot afford to buy a generator, even if you can afford it why should you have to spend what could be thousands of dollars because this company did not spend some of their 8 billion dollars they made last year on keeping their infrastructure repaired. Why would we allow this to continue, all their investors and CEO’s got millions, they claim bankruptcy and their customers have to go without power. We live in one of the most technologically advanced states in the union and are living like a third world country. Please do not stand by and let this continue.

 

[nwdiver]

Here is something to think about, I have a real problem with this PSPS from Pacific Graft and Extortion. Some people cannot be without power and cannot afford to buy a generator, even if you can afford it why should you have to spend what could be thousands of dollars because this company did not spend some of their 8 billion dollars they made last year on keeping their infrastructure repaired. Why would we allow this to continue, all their investors and CEO’s got millions, they claim bankruptcy and their customers have to go without power. We live in one of the most technologically advanced states in the union and are living like a third world country. Please do not stand by and let this continue.

.... I don't know... IMO we've become far too complacent and reliant on the grid. There's no pressure for micro-grids or resilience. For a public school to spend $300k on solar to reduce their electric bill but not go the extra 10% so they can at least keep the lights on during the day (very... very little storage needed) is inexcusable. If it's not a safety outage today it's gonna be something else tomorrow... possibly with no warning at all and under more difficult circumstances.

>95% of PV installs are ~useless without the grid. That needs to change. I've installed SMA systems that could have 'secure power' for $200 but even that seems to be too much because outages here are so rare.

IMO the silver lining here is hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call and we'll see increased adoption of solar, micro-grids and battery backed systems.

 

[gpez]

.... I don't know... IMO we've become far too complacent and reliant on the grid. There's no pressure for micro-grids or resilience. For a public school to spend $300k on solar to reduce their electric bill but not go the extra 10% so they can at least keep the lights on during the day (very... very little storage needed) is inexcusable. If it's not a safety outage today it's gonna be something else tomorrow... possibly with no warning at all and under more difficult circumstances.

>95% of PV installs are ~useless without the grid. That needs to change. I've installed SMA systems that could have 'secure power' for $200 but even that seems to be too much because outages here are so rare.

IMO the silver lining here is hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call and we'll see increased adoption of solar, micro-grids and battery backed systems.

I tend to agree. Pain is a powerful motivator. Let's not forget PG&E are a state sanctioned monopoly entity and the CA government has it's share of blame in the mess too. For me "not standing by and letting this continue" means taking control of my own needs and not being dependent on incompetent or corrupt organizations and encouraging others to do the same.

 

[Merrill]

.... I don't know... IMO we've become far too complacent and reliant on the grid. There's no pressure for micro-grids or resilience. For a public school to spend $300k on solar to reduce their electric bill but not go the extra 10% so they can at least keep the lights on during the day (very... very little storage needed) is inexcusable. If it's not a safety outage today it's gonna be something else tomorrow... possibly with no warning at all and under more difficult circumstances.

>95% of PV installs are ~useless without the grid. That needs to change. I've installed SMA systems that could have 'secure power' for $200 but even that seems to be too much because outages here are so rare.

IMO the silver lining here is hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call and we'll see increased adoption of solar, micro-grids and battery backed systems.

I agree, but in California we have 3 power companies that are basically a monopoly and no one to over see what they do, the wildfires in the last 3 years are do to poor power poles and weak power lines that have never been update or repaired. The grid needs to be split up and owned by the CCA’s as a public companies. They also are trying to push against solar and storage.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

.... I don't know... IMO we've become far too complacent and reliant on the grid. There's no pressure for micro-grids or resilience. For a public school to spend $300k on solar to reduce their electric bill but not go the extra 10% so they can at least keep the lights on during the day (very... very little storage needed) is inexcusable. If it's not a safety outage today it's gonna be something else tomorrow... possibly with no warning at all and under more difficult circumstances.

>95% of PV installs are ~useless without the grid. That needs to change. I've installed SMA systems that could have 'secure power' for $200 but even that seems to be too much because outages here are so rare.

IMO the silver lining here is hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call and we'll see increased adoption of solar, micro-grids and battery backed systems.

These battery systems are expensive. If I was not incentivized, I don't think I would have prioritized Powerwalls.

Good you highlighted SMA 'secure power.' During these Public Safety Power Shut-off(?) (PSPS), I would have to figure out how to use the SMA "Secure Power Supply" (SPS) on my solar inverter to keep the fridge going. I am surprised solar folks have been talking about Powerwalls over replacing their solar inverters with an SMA SPS-equipped one--an inverter that can output power mid-day if it was sunny... possibly a less expensive alternative. Do people know these things actually exist?

 

[Xminus6]

These battery systems are expensive. If I was not incentivized, I don't think I would have prioritized Powerwalls.

Good you highlighted SMA 'secure power.' During these Public Safety Power Shut-off(?) (PSPS), I would have to figure out how to use the SMA "Secure Power Supply" (SPS) on my solar inverter to keep the fridge going. I am surprised solar folks have been talking about Powerwalls over replacing their solar inverters with an SMA SPS-equipped one--an inverter that can output power mid-day if it was sunny... possibly a less expensive alternative. Do people know these things actually exist?

Still leaves you dark at night when the whole area is down. We take for granted having some electrical light around somewhere. It’s somehow more oppressively dark when you’re surrounded by neighbors and streetlights they are also dark for as far as you can see.

Good to know about those inverters though. Mine are right next to my garage fridge and would have been useful last week.

 

[cwerdna]

Comcast/Xfinity has backup only for a few hours at best, so we lost internet each time PG&E blacked us out.

I have no Powerwall but was using an inverter from my Bolt to power some stuff at home (e.g. security camera NVR system, fridge, laptop, lights, etc.) and was a victim of PG&E PSPS twice so far in the South Bay and Comcast/Xfinity is my ISP.

My cable modem and wi-fi access point are on UPSes. The first time, Comcast stayed up for about 45 minutes after the PSPS then went down. It stayed down.

I can't speak to if it stayed down and for how long as I was away at work when power was restored.

I was a victim again within on Oct 26th and this time Comcrap went down before the 30 minute mark. (Yes, in both cases my cable modem and access point still had power from my UPSes.) I posted about the lengths at PG&E Shutting off power. - Page 6 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

 

[astrorob]

I am surprised solar folks have been talking about Powerwalls over replacing their solar inverters with an SMA SPS-equipped one--an inverter that can output power mid-day if it was sunny... possibly a less expensive alternative. Do people know these things actually exist?

my SMA5000 has one of these SPS outlets and during a planned outage a couple of years ago we tried to run a hairdryer off of it (on low) and it kept blowing the breaker. seemed very temperamental. the system was making > 2kw at the time, so in theory it should have worked OK. i concluded that it wasn't really much good other than maybe to charge phones, etc. it could probably run the refrigerator though.

I have no Powerwall but was using an inverter from my Bolt to power some stuff at home (e.g. security camera NVR system, fridge, laptop, lights, etc.) and was a victim of PG&E PSPS twice so far in the South Bay and Comcast/Xfinity is my ISP.

i tried to do this too - my main load in the garage is a water heater with positive ventilation... the controller is very finicky and decided since the inverter was not grounded that the polarity was reversed, and it refused to start. i have a better inverter now that has a ground lug; i guess i need to tie it's neutral output to that lug to get the water heater to run. or maybe just actually ground it to a pipe.

kind of sucks that the bolt has to sit there in neutral for this to work. i think i should invest in some wheel chocks for safety.