Swapping is Coming [Discuss how it will be accomplished]

[CapitalistOppressor]

I didn't interpret Duff's statement that way. Sure they made the electrical and coolant connectors snap-in, but 30 bolts? Sounds pretty gnarly. The infrastructure to robotically unbolt 30 bolts, swap a battery, bolt back 30 bolts . . . as he even admits, there is no such infrastructure in the country right now. Frunk or it ain't happening, is my take.

This would be done with a jig and all of the bolts would be undone simultaneously. Once the jig was in place the bolts would probably be out in under 5 seconds. Putting them back in probably takes more like 15 seconds because you need to be careful to engage the threads and get the proper torque.

My guess is that the battery would be off the car less than 30 seconds after the car is in position. Most of the time will be from moving the old battery out of the way and getting a new battery in place.

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It's funny, because his answer focuses a lot on how impossible it would be to get companies to agree on a single standard, but the superchargers he just got finished talking about are Tesla only. Everything in his answer seems to be modeled around a solution that would work across different kinds of cars.

The question was specifically about Better Place, which is why he was focusing on the standards issue. But the common standard problem is just one of the reasons that company is not workable.

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I'm not a mechanical engineer, but to me unfastening and fastening 30 bolts seems like exactly the kind of thing a robot could do really quickly. The F1 pit stop teams do what - 20 bolts? - in a few seconds, and they are only human.

I occasionally work as a crew member on a Top Fuel dragster and it takes me like 10 seconds at most to remove a tire, and we aren't even trying to do that quickly like an F1 team is. Even as a human the only remotely time consuming thing about the process is moving the tire in and out of position. This would be a trivial task for a battery swap machine, and I'd be shocked if it took more than a few minutes for the whole process to complete.

 

[ChadS]

The machine to take a battery off and put another one back on is indeed easy to imagine. I have a harder time imagining what happens to the old packs once they are out, though. They must go in to some sort of stack and get charged up, but this seems to significantly complicate the machine. Actually I guess it hands off to another...kind of like automatic parking systems where there's first a lift to get to a specific level, then something else takes over to put the car in a specific spot. Probably not difficult technically.

But I have no frame of reference for what such machines would cost. Anybody have any ideas? I fear if the number is too high, all we're going to get is a demonstration that swapping is possible. Which may get them more ZEV credits, or may not...CARB met this week to discuss the issue, but I haven't heard what happened.

If the cost is too high, and service centers already have staff and tools, it once again looks tempting to go that route...but that doesn't seem speedy or convenient enough. Perhaps it could be employees at service centers for now, with robot buildout in the future if enough people show themselves willing to pay for the service along a test corridor?

So many possibilities, so little data...

 

[copyhacker]

I didn't interpret Duff's statement that way. Sure they made the electrical and coolant connectors snap-in, but 30 bolts? Sounds pretty gnarly. The infrastructure to robotically unbolt 30 bolts, swap a battery, bolt back 30 bolts . . . as he even admits, there is no such infrastructure in the country right now. Frunk or it ain't happening, is my take.

And if you rewind the video about a minute, he's talking about smaller swappable modules. I have a hunch they're working along both lines. Which one is introduced first, and specific scenarios for each, is anyone's guess.

 

[raymond]

When the car is built, the battery pack is installed at the very end of the assembly line. (I've seen it with my own eyes.) So it's not like a load bearing beam in a house, which is put in before the load is added.

Also, all EU cars are shipped without the battery. The battery (and some other parts I believe) are installed upon arrival in The Netherlands. (I still wonder how they get the cars to EU without a battery. Towed? Tiny battery so the S can drive a few miles on its own?)

 

[ElSupreme]

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but to me unfastening and fastening 30 bolts seems like exactly the kind of thing a robot could do really quickly. The F1 pit stop teams do what - 20 bolts? - in a few seconds, and they are only human.

I am pretty sure every racing outfit, except NASCAR, use center lock wheels. So they only have one 'screw' to hassle with per wheel. And turning a bolt is something that a machine can do very easily. The hard part with the machine is lining up over a screw/nut. Positioning it properly, ensuring it is properly engaged. And then starting a thread is also something that a machine can't do very well either. There is a reason why car bodies are welded together and not bolted together. Machines weld better than they bolt.

In NASCAR they have humans line up the air gun. And I doubt they give a care in the world if they cross thread their nuts during a race. So they can be haphazard going back on also.

This would be done with a jig and all of the bolts would be undone simultaneously. Once the jig was in place the bolts would probably be out in under 5 seconds. Putting them back in probably takes more like 15 seconds because you need to be careful to engage the threads and get the proper torque.

My guess is that the battery would be off the car less than 30 seconds after the car is in position. Most of the time will be from moving the old battery out of the way and getting a new battery in place.

I occasionally work as a crew member on a Top Fuel dragster and it takes me like 10 seconds at most to remove a tire, and we aren't even trying to do that quickly like an F1 team is. Even as a human the only remotely time consuming thing about the process is moving the tire in and out of position. This would be a trivial task for a battery swap machine, and I'd be shocked if it took more than a few minutes for the whole process to complete.

The main problem with a machine would be lining up and positioning the unscrewing mechanisms. Assuring they are clear of dirt and damage, and determining if there is a problem. All of those things can be done, but it is hard to do. Whereas humans do that sort of work effortlessly and quickly.

I would think the hardest part of putting together a jig like this would be lining up all the screwing/unscrewing mechanisms, and operating them so they don't cross-thread/damage anything, and can also determine if there is a problem with something while operating. Moving the battery around, assuming it can be dropped out of the car without any clearance issues should be a fairly straightforward conveyor problem. I deal with pallet conveyor that moves ~3000 lbs pallets, and can position them within 1/4" every time. And this is with crappy wooden pallets. So moving the battery shouldn't be that hard once it is away from the car.

 

[raymond]

The F1 pit stop teams do what - 20 bolts? - in a few seconds, and they are only human.

I've been looking at the Red Bull team swapping four tires in 2.05 seconds and as hard as I try I can't see any (un)screwing of bolts. I'm guess the driver can pop a lever and almost eject the wheels (or something). (YouTube)

More to the point: unscrewing 30 bolts need not take any more time than unscrewing one bolt does.

 

[RDoc]

My guess on what would happen to the batteries after they were removed is they would be placed into a cassette which had the same connector as the car to allow charging with temperature control. The robot would have access to the cassette where it would place the removed battery, then pick up a charged battery and re-install it in the car. The other batteries could be charging simultaneously, or for a site without a recharging grid connection, the cassette could be swapped for one loaded with charged batteries and trucked to a central location with access to a high capacity grid connection.

The non-recharging scheme would allow a "pop-up" battery charging facility to be set up for temporary high demand areas such as ski resorts in the winter and beaches in the summer and easier installation of swapping sites away from major grid connections. I don't know the economics of such a system, but I suspect there is better access to high capacity grid connections in industrial areas than along highways between cities and having a single recharging site might be cheaper than multiple ones. On the other hand there would likely have to be a larger battery inventory and there would be the trucking cost.

 

[ElSupreme]

I've been looking at the Red Bull team swapping four tires in 2.05 seconds and as hard as I try I can't see any (un)screwing of bolts. I'm guess the driver can pop a lever and almost eject the wheels (or something). (YouTube)

They use what are called 'center lock wheels' where there is a central point (think of it as a single nut) that unscrews. They are faster than nuts (4 large, versus 20 small) to unscrew, and refasten. But also much safer, as you don't eject nuts all over the pavement, only to get shot back as people spin their tires exiting a pit stop.

 

[jeff_adams]

Exclusive: Better Place to file for bankruptcy - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blogTerm Sheet

I really hope Elon doesn't go down this path. For those of you sure he will, maybe they were delaying the announcement to see if Better Place's technology would become available cheap enough.

 

[Lloyd]

Exclusive: Better Place to file for bankruptcy - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blogTerm Sheet

I really hope Elon doesn't go down this path. For those of you sure he will, maybe they were delaying the announcement to see if Better Place's technology would become available cheap enough.

I agree and hope they do not do this. Keep building the best car they are able I say. The improvements in battery charging, charging speed and technology will eventually make obsolete swapping IMO.

 

[WarpedOne]

How fast is TM building superchargers that cost ~$250k/unit?
Now tell me how fast will they be able to build up swapping stations and battery stacks that cost at least 20 times as much per site?
5 stations per one year or 5 years per one station?

Generaly swapping stations just don't work economically, no matter how much anyone wants to have them.
Swappable batteries and stations must be payed for by end users.

 

[gregincal]

The question was specifically about Better Place, which is why he was focusing on the standards issue. But the common standard problem is just one of the reasons that company is not workable.

Actually the question wasn't about Better Place, the question was "What do you think about that (supercharging) versus swapping out the battery." His reply seemed to be about Better Place, rather than a Tesla solution, which I find interesting.

 

[DonPedro]

I feel there is a lot of rushing to judgement here. The reason why we are even here discussing is that Tesla took something that "everyone" said was not viable (and that others had failed at previously), and just did it Right. (I'm referring to building a super-attractive EV).

Most people who are opposed to swapping seem to be so because they don't believe it could work (mixed with a little bit of "well, I don't need it so other's shouldn't either). I say: If this is the way they've gone down, then give them a chance to again do what doubters said they couldn't. I mean, it was worth it giving them that chance the last time around!

 

[AndrewBissell]

Exclusive: Better Place to file for bankruptcy - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blogTerm Sheet

I really hope Elon doesn't go down this path. For those of you sure he will, maybe they were delaying the announcement to see if Better Place's technology would become available cheap enough.

Or Tesla can now buy Better Place for pennies on the dollar, acquiring a fully built out battery swap network in Israel, a partially built out one in Denmark and a well developed technology (ready no doubt for some Tesla magic to improve and tweak it, bu essentially ready to roll out in the US and elsewhere).

Perhaps the timing of the 5th in the trilogy announcement has been all about waiting for this bankruptcy filing.

Perhaps Duff's focus on the Better Place battery swap (when asked a more neutral question) is because he was part of a technical due diligence team.

Remember Tesla and Better Place HQs are close to each other.

 

[brianman]

and they are only human.

Sounds straight out of a Sci-fi flick.

 

[cwerdna]

Remember Tesla and Better Place HQs are close to each other.

The keyword is WERE.

BetterPlace will cease US operations, close Palo Alto office - San Francisco Business Times

Just because HQs are near each other doesn't mean something will develop. Nintendo of America's HQ is in Redmond, WA and is VERY close to Microsoft's main campus and is within a short walk of their RedWest campus. How much collaboration have you seen between the two?

About | Better Place currently lists no US address. An old copy at About | Better Place did.

edit: And now the fat lady has sung.
Better Place files for bankruptcy | The Times of Israel
Better Place to be liquidated - Globes
Israeli electric car venture Better Place seeks to dissolve - Business - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

I feel there is a lot of rushing to judgement here. The reason why we are even here discussing is that Tesla took something that "everyone" said was not viable (and that others had failed at previously), and just did it Right. (I'm referring to building a super-attractive EV).

Most people who are opposed to swapping seem to be so because they don't believe it could work (mixed with a little bit of "well, I don't need it so other's shouldn't either). I say: If this is the way they've gone down, then give them a chance to again do what doubters said they couldn't. I mean, it was worth it giving them that chance the last time around!

In my experience, more often than not, people who say that something is impossible say so because they themselves as a person are not able to do that specific thing they say is impossible. There is no law in physics that prohibits battery changes in electric vehicles in under one minute. There simply isn't. Technology pretty much boils down to teach matter how to behave. Looking at what Elon's companies achieve, I have no doubt at all that they have the brains to teach matter how to change batteries in under one minute.

 

[brianman]

In my experience, more often than not, people who say that something is impossible say so because they themselves as a person are not able to do that specific thing they say is impossible.

These are the same people that casually use the word "genius" to talk about some interesting but trivial achievement or idea (like the foot-liftgate thing in commercials).

You have to calibrate statements to the person making them. If Elon calls something genius or impossible (in a non-sarcastic way), it's likely worth some attention. If anyone with "investment" or "financial" in his/her job title says it, I treat it like he/she said "that rock is pretty".

 

[cwerdna]

From Better Place CEO: A missed opportunity - Globes , another issue to think about:

Might the liquidator decide to take the battery and leave a useless car?

"Ownership of the car is different for each customer, and it's true that the customer doesn’t own the battery. This is the first thing that the liquidator will have to examine, and it's hard to give an answer now."

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

These are the same people that casually use the word "genius" to talk about some interesting but trivial achievement or idea (like the foot-liftgate thing in commercials).

You have to calibrate statements to the person making them. If Elon calls something genius or impossible (in a non-sarcastic way), it's likely worth some attention. If anyone with "investment" or "financial" in his/her job title says it, I treat it like he/she said "that rock is pretty".

Agreed.

I've come to the conclusion that, in engineering, it's best to put all personal bias aside and only look at whether something is permitted by physical laws or not. But since physical laws as a product of science are, in principle, subject to possible extension or revision in the future, even this must be taken with a pinch of salt. From my own perspective as an electrical engineer with mechanical engineering background, a solution to the battery swapping is pretty much trivial and relatively inexpensive to implement. It's good to try and find possible points of criticism, as long as they aren't solely based upon personal preferences, like DonPedro pointed out in post #153 .