Tesla has one of the worst safety accident rating and death stat compared to other comparable luxury cars.
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Tesla autopilot HW3
- Thread starter verygreen
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Tesla has one of the worst safety accident rating and death stat compared to other comparable luxury cars.
In what world does this make it Teslas fault?
I trust the smoke alarms in my house to alert me to a fire. Doesn't stop me turning my oven off though.
You actually said all but Supercruise, and you're thus wrong.
Amazing leap of logic to presume that because a feature doesn't work well, it's safer.
Further, many people die from driving distracted daily in plain-Jane vehicles. Do you therefore argue that all vehicles are insufficiently safe to drive?
Craziness.
And I suppose you have a comprehensive set of numbers to back this claim, with impeccable unbiased research backing it up?
I was rear ended by someone looking at the car next to me... I've seen accidents in sub 5 mph stop and go... My wife saw a person texting on two phones, with both on the top of the wheel... Heck I almost crashed it the time it took to read the label on a cassette... Eyes up does not mean paying attention... Eyes not up for <10 seconds does not mean safe...
The world keeps making better fools...
(You can also satisfy the nag by tapping a button on the wheel)
You love to make bold statements. How about backing it up with some facts? In an earlier post you said there is a new video every other week of someone asleep at the wheel of a Tesla. That means 26 per year. I have seen 2 or 3. Are you exaggerating? Now you have made another claim with zero data.
The torque sensor was in there from the beginning, and it was actually an MB part as the Model S used a few parts from the MB.
The first "getting in the back seat" videos weren't from Tesla vehicles at all. It's funny how people keep thinking they only started when Tesla AP1 came around.
WK057 (a user on TMC) was actually the first person in a Tesla to do the "in the back seat" thing. He got the idea from other youtube videos out there with other cars. I think it was actually an Infinity that was his inspiration if memory serves correct.
In any case he was the first, and did so in a very safe/sane manner. It wasn't some idiotic thing, but just to prove it could be done. After those videos Tesla got the bright idea to use the seat sensor to prevent that. Of course people could just put weight down on the seat.
Tesla didn't change the behavior of the torque sensor until the first fatality AP related accidents happened in the US.
They went away from a "confidence" based warning to timed nags (that are also speed limited related).
Blader can't provide any statistics because no one other than Tesla keeps them.
Even adaptive cruise control can kill a person if a person doesn't understand that a radar based ADAS system can't always see stopped objects. There is absolutely no way that people haven't died while using adaptive cruise control (which counts at a SAE L1 system). All a person has to do is look away at the wrong time. The average person that is going to txt while driving will use anything the car has as a way to buy time to send that txt.
If they have an adaptive cruise control system they'll use that.
If they have a L2 system they'll use that
If they have to have a hand on the steering wheel then they'll have one hand on the steering wheel while they txt.
When it comes to texting the steering wheel nag doesn't really matter.
The only GOOD way of implementing an ADAS system is how Cadillac did it. I don't think there is any disagreement on that one. No one wants the stupid nag anymore.
Eye Tracking is the only way to save the texters from themselves, and to deal with people who fall asleep while driving.
There are some specific things about Tesla.
You can simply drive wicked fast. This is the number one killer when it comes to Tesla. It's getting to the point where it's every month while we stand around talking about one AP death every year or two.
The AP system is good enough to trick you into trusting it. Then it throw you into a gore point and straight for a divider.
It won't geofence anything so its not going to protect stupid people from themselves
The Model S/X are especially quite and smooth. I don't fall asleep when I drive, but all my passengers are sound asleep even after only 30 min. Or maybe it's because I'm really boring.
But, there is also one important thing that isn't unique to Tesla.
There is a loss of situational awareness when driving any L2 system. This can lead to accidents because the user is unprepared mentally to take over. Part of why I stopped using AP was because of this. Nothing about the nag system will impact that. It's simply a weakness I discovered in myself (that some others have as well). I proved to myself that I was a worse driver with AP because my reaction time to debris on the road was worse with AP than without. When L2/L3 cars have Lidar, rear corner radars, and some other tech then I'll use L2/L3 technology a lot more. Until then it's just something to play with.
I marked your post "like" because I enjoy good replies.
I actually knew the torque sensor was already there and just repurposed or perhaps more accurately additionally purposed. Poor wording on my part.
I didn't know others had made videos. I just saw the Tesla ones and thought "This is going to get a bad reaction." The PR form those videos was bad. I wasn't involved with the decision making as to adding the nags so I'll accede to your information.
We agree about other cars also having fatalities.
You comment about not using AP is interesting. The same effect you are noticing happens with cruise control and even more with adaptive cruise control. One of my earlier posts referenced a French study that shows the effect with cruise control systems.
I have to wonder about how many of those are fake.
I've driven both an AP1 Model S, and a AP2.5 Model 3 and there is no way I could go for very long without the red hands of death.
The Model 3 is especially finicky where it requires more torque to satisfy it than the Model S. With the Model S I could see how someone could fall asleep just in the right way with their hands on the steering wheel. Where the Model 3 I simply don't see it.
Unless of course they're using defeat devices, but those have been around for awhile. In fact some of the first youtube videos of people in ADAS L2 vehicles simply attached some kind of weight to it.
In any case I hope the people who fake the "sleeping while driving a Tesla" videos keep doing it. That will put pressure on Tesla to switch to using the interior camera to monitor the driver.
It might be a lie, but it will save lives.
I think all of us Tesla Model 3 owners should pretend to sleep when we see someone with their cell phone in their hands as part of a total warfare against the torque sensor.
If you can't tell I really despise the torque sensor, and the lies Tesla tries to spread with it. Where they claim how long a person doesn't have their hands at the steering wheel. When the reality is how long since it last detected torque being applied which is a completely different thing.
I am totally with you here. and I even needed to make a video to demonstrate the whole "hands on wheel means nothing" since so many people take the whole "hands not detected" to mean "he did not hold the wheel!"
The part about accident rating, and death rate is likely true. But, what he's comparing it to is wrong.
If you look at the fatalities you'll see the vast majority of them are of reckless driving.
How much at fault is Tesla?
I would challenge a person to find a vehicle with similar sales that required more discipline and self control than a Tesla. Not just self control in not speeding, but also self control in not texting or driving while distracted.
It's not a luxury car as much as it's a sports sedan.
When it comes down to it some car companies are who they are.
Volvo is volvo and they're implementing controls to greatly limit what a driver can do. They're goal above all else is safety, and the owners will welcome it.
Other companies like Porsche do things different.
Tesla tries to claim EVERYTHING, but that's not possible because of physics.
The top thing Tesla needed to do they already did with adding in a parental control to limit the top speed as a bunch of the fatalities were of kids driving the car at speeds well over 100mph.
The second thing is to replace the torque sensor since it's not capable of doing what it needs to do. Having a better system will prevent people from falling asleep at the wheel, and those idiots who text while driving. In fact it could spot someone holding their phone while driving, and then put them in the AP penalty box.
They could then limit the top speed of every Tesla to 112mph (similar to Volvo) while introducing a track mode for every Tesla, and not just to the P3D. That way the track mode can remove the speed limiter. Now I know the track mode isn't GPS fenced, but it's pretty clear if a car crashes while in track mode on the street then it's the drivers fault.
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Tesla does not say that hands were not on the wheel, they say hands were not detected...
Except that isn't what they wrote
It does mean something, though Tesla is too polite to be blunt: that the driver took no action before the crash to avoid it, neither braking nor swerving. They didn't pay attention to driving (or were incapacitated) and crashed into the stationary object.
Tesla does not say that hands were not on the wheel, they say hands were not detected...
Except that isn't what they wrote
It does mean something, though Tesla is too polite to be blunt: that the driver took no action before the crash to avoid it, neither braking nor swerving. They didn't pay attention to driving (or were incapacitated) and crashed into the stationary object.
The ambiguity hurts Tesla more than it helps Tesla though.
What ambiguity? If the driver steered, it would be detected. If they didn't steer, it doesn't matter if their hands were on the wheel or not. From a timing point of view, even one second of not controlling your car can cause an accident.
I know, but I think it was intentionally misleading wording to prey on the people that don't have a Tesla. It implied the driver took their hands off the steering wheel when in fact we have no idea what the driver did.Except that isn't what they wrote
Other than not steer...
Sure, you could ascribe a level of inattentiveness with more data, but does that matter? Had hands on wheel and crashed car, had hands off wheel and crashed car, what's the difference?
The difference is it was portrayed that he did not hold the steering wheel for a long time before the crash, was repeatedly nagged to hold steering wheel and such. All to drive a particular narrative.
What if he was blinded by the sun? There are other possibilities, but I was not there and the AP crash footage did not survive so we don't know what happened other than he eventually hit that divider after supposedly going straight for several seconds (I am not sure if this bit was confirmed officially by NHTSA).
In the end of course the fault is most likely with the driver since AP is an assistance feature. I just don't like all the annoying word games Tesla seems to be playing here.
green basically summed up my point, so gracias on that.
Tesla could absolutely 100% be doing a way better job than their current approach when it comes to alerting the driver to you know, actually be alert.
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