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Tesla battery swap: Post announcement discussion

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I can see where you're coming from but what about the return journey? Sorry I don't know the distances, but here's an example to clarify what I mean:

You do a swap ($80) at Harris drive to Tejon, then you want to return home and you're faced with either supercharging at Tejon or another swap ($80) and back in Harris you swap again ($80) to get your original battery back. Cost has been potentially $240 to avoid 2 extra hours in the car?

I also think that (to quote Elon's words) free is better than faster. But I can understand that not everybody would agree with me.

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As I've been reading this thread here and there today, seeing lots of calculations, I think I've come to the conclusion nunbers dont matter with this. The fact that an EV can now have a full battery faster than filling up with gas is going to be great to tell people who are haters or on the fence of EVs. Who cares whether they use it or not, its technically achievable.

This is true. I told to some friends of mine about the Tesla battery swapping event and they were amazed. They couldn't believe that by the time that an ICE car filled its tank two batteries were swapped. And I realised that they started changing their mind on EVs. In fact they are going to test the Model S.
 
I can see where you're coming from but what about the return journey? Sorry I don't know the distances, but here's an example to clarify what I mean:

You do a swap ($80) at Harris drive to Tejon, then you want to return home and you're faced with either supercharging at Tejon or another swap ($80) and back in Harris you swap again ($80) to get your original battery back. Cost has been potentially $240 to avoid 2 extra hours in the car?

It would be drive to Harris, swap, then supercharge at Tejon (quicker with the 85kWh) and on to LA. Then, supercharge at Tejon on the way back to Harris, swap back to the original pack then home.

So, it's $120-160 to save ~2 hours of charging, the use of a larger battery while in LA for the trip, and fewer miles on your original pack. Definitely not a sure thing, but tempting depending on how useful the bigger battery would be on the far end of the trip.

As a fellow 60kWh in the bay area, I was going through that scenario for myself already :)
 
Owners were not the target of this announcement. The auto industry was. The message is that EVs will be able to do EVERYTHING better than gas cars, so you can no longer dismiss them as niche vehicles - you had better build some if you want to be in business after we put in this infrastructure.
Agreed. And there was another, not so subtle, shot across the bow:
"If you come up with something you think an EV can't do better, Tesla will prove you wrong. And we might rub your nose in it a little."
 
[Edited out part others had already answered]


Owners were not the target of this announcement. The auto industry was. The message is that EVs can do EVERYTHING better than gas cars, so you can no longer dismiss them as niche vehicles - you had better build some if you want to be in business after we put in this infrastructure. (Which will take years, yes. But the automakers will need those years to launch a line of vehicles with a new propulsion system. They have to get started now, and the fastest way is to buy in to Tesla's platform and ecosystem. Too bad they will put their efforts in to building another system purely to avoid assisting Tesla).


I've read every post in the thread waiting for someone to make an obvious point. So far, it hasn't happened so I'm going to go CO on you (or is it TC?)

How many Tesla owners would chose to do a swap if it was free?

I know you're gonna go "Huh? Haven't you been paying attention? Elon is going to charge for it".

What if Elon was test marketing the concept, but for someone else? Everyone is complaining about Tesla owners (or shareholders) having to pay for the swap infrastructure costs. What if Elon was smart enough to have someone else pay for it? And when they do, he announces that it will be free for Telsa owners?

How would that work?

Simple, we know that Tesla buyers have been funding the supercharger network (2k per car or so). The more cars that sell, the more the infrastructure can expand for superchargers. What if Elon convinced Daimler, Toyota and maybe GM to bake in that same cost to the drivetrains they are buying from Tesla? What if all that money goes to the costs of the swappers?

In exchange, they get to use the superchargers and they can pay to swap. Tesla will have already proven that EV owners will pay for a fast swap. Once the licensees have joined the system and payed back the swapper costs, Tesla can announce free swapping for Tesla owners. Value benefit for them. By that time, the superchargers will likely be very busy with several different types of EVs waiting. The cheaper "GM type" owners will wait around for the "free" supercharger access. Tesla owners can come and go on the swapper paid for by the licensees. Pretty smart.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the GM rumor started right before this demo? Anyone else have the insight that maybe this demo was performed recently for "industry insiders"? Wouldn't it make sense to test the system out and give a private preview to Daimler, Toyota and maybe invite all other manufacturers? It's been proven that owners will pay for supercharger access (Elon can show them the stats for 60 owners). Now he will show on busy routes that EV owners will pay for the option to swap. Once Daimler and others have seen that, there is no reason for them to not follow in Tesla's footsteps and license the technology. When that happens, Tesla Moters win (but so do shareholders and car owners).

Elon has seen WAY down the road. We're looking too short term.....
 
Q: When you return the battery pack, do you have to pay again for the swap? And next question - how is this technology better than Better Place's?
Elon: Yes, by the time you get pack you get your own pack back fully charged, and you pay again for the pack swap.


No one has noticed this little tidbit? It's not going to cost you 60-800 dollars, it's going to cost 120-160 dollars. Yeah, not really the same as an ICE car.


You have to factor in the fact that you are getting Supercharging for FREE forever! Let's say you get 5 free supercharges for every time you need to swap because you're in a hurry, etc. $140 average swap cost divided by 6. It costs you 23 bucks per charge stop. Your driving habits and needs decide what you want to pay, but this is balanced out by FREE Supercharging.
 
There was a line somewhere about getting a big bill if you upgrade battery size using the swap station, but I can't find the reference right now...
The big bill commentary (at least the one I recall) was regarding the swapping for a newer / less-degraded pack. The 60 to 85 upgrade was discussed in the Q&A that deonb (I think) transcribed.
 
You get your battery back fully charged so you are getting 2 "full tanks" for that price.

Also, this:

Q: [Something like: the new pack you get may not be much newer than the one you have]
Elon: That's right, yes exactly. If you got a pack which is essentially the same as the one you dropped off, you don't need to drop it off again.


And I bet this also covers the "nobody ever drives the same road back" scenarios that shorts are now all complaining about.

You exchange your first pack in location A, drive to B - exchange, drive to C - exchange, drive to D - exchange for a similar pack to what you dropped off at A originally (I bet you can pick the pack you want on the monitor). So you don't have to pay for either an upgrade fee or transportation fee for your circular route.

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The big bill commentary (at least the one I recall) was regarding the swapping for a newer / less-degraded pack. The 60 to 85 upgrade was discussed in the Q&A that deonb (I think) transcribed.

No, it's not there. I wish it were.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...uncement-discussion/page9?p=368519#post368519
 
Yea, I'm not sure swapping sizes is going to be allowed. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some incompatibilities between 60 and 85 that would require actual shop time on the car if you wanted to upgrade.

That would not be cromulent.

It would either mean:

1) A 60 can't use a swapper until a shop visit. But can't be:
Elon: "Battery pack swap works with all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was always there."

-or-

2) A battery swapper needs to carry both 85kWh and 60kWh packs.
Me: "Eew."


I'm thinking at worse you'll get a 85 pack that's software limited to 60 to 40.
 
Found one reference: Tesla Shows Off 90-Second Battery Swapping : Discovery News
I hadn't read that one before, but probably another account that also referenced that part of the Q&A.
That same article also says:
Looking ahead to the company's third-generation electric car in 2016, Musk wasn't convinced that swapping would remain relevant as batteries and charging improved.
I love Tesla, but at this point I'm looking at swapping as an elaborate advertising campaign rather than something that'll get a serious rollout.
 
I love Tesla, but at this point I'm looking at swapping as an elaborate advertising campaign rather than something that'll get a serious rollout.

I think that's mostly how they see it as well. From deonb's excellent transcript: "Elon: No, I think it's important for us to address the concerns that people have. We need to address the reasons that people are not buying electric cars."

That said, I'm sure they're smart enough to follow the market if people end up liking swapping enough in the meantime for the stations to pay for themselves. It'll be very interesting to see how it turns out.
 
2) A battery swapper needs to carry both 85kWh and 60kWh packs.

Sorta, but not really. They have to set aside your original pack anyway in case you either come back for it, or they need to transport it back to you. Once they set aside your 60kWh pack, they might only provide 85kWh ones going into the cars. If it's technically possible to swap a 60 for an 85 and drive off.
 
Realistically, I don't think swap stations will get a whole lot of use for actual swapping.

I see them more as a convenient place to purchase a battery upgrade in the future, and a way for Tesla to generate more revenue through power grid load balancing.

The demo WAS cool to watch, but I think that most Tesla drivers will stick to the Supercharger unless they are really in a pickle time-wise.
 
Realistically, I don't think swap stations will get a whole lot of use for actual swapping.

So far Elon has said their is a bottleneck at the superchargers on Fridays and Sundays. The Batt swap will be able to address that issue both short term and long term. Otherwise I would agree. For the sake of my stocks I wish they had announced more regarding how this adds value to their EV. I do think demand will increase based on battery swapping though.