Tesla design chief Franz von Holzhausen on Roadster 2.0

[n2mb_racing]

It's not necessarily about cells, but the energy density of the cells that could fit in that small package... The new cells are larger, and their density is greater than it's size, so it's possible depending on if they achieve the correct chemistry to give them the energy density with the larger cells...

Let's see what happens.

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That slide says it all. They have 5x more energy, but they are also 5.5x larger. That's why it's only a 16% range increase, I'm guessing that's mostly due to packing efficiency. The chemistry isn't dramatically different. The big innovation is being able to maintain the same power output, without overheating, with the new tab design. But, beyond that, the benefits are all in cost and ease of assembly. Nothing really relevant to the roadster.

Lithium ion chemistry is slowly still improving. I just started to see 5800 mAh 21700 cells, where before 5000 mAh was the limit. But, it's a slow rate of improvement. Nothing that will fit 200 kwhr in the Roadster.

Of course, the cross-sectional area is lower, so maybe they don't need 200 kwhr, maybe more like 150 kwhr to reach 600 miles... So, yeah. Maybe. With aero wheels.

The Model 3 LR gets 348 miles out of 82 kwhr. The Roadster probably as the same or lower cross sectional area than the Model 3. Ok, maybe 140 kwhr. Ok, I've slowly convinced myself it might happen.

Anyway, just build the damn thing already so I can buy it. I really don't care about all the extras. Just use the Plaid powertrain in the Roadster body and call it a day.

 

[bolosky]

Hey, I've been driving a Roaster 2.0 since 2009.

I'm sorry to report that it does *not* hit those performance specs, though.

 

[brkaus]

Gah. Why can't they just put a new body on the Plaid, cut some weight here and there, upgrade the battery to 21700 cells with about 120 kWhr to handle higher peak discharge rates, and ship it. That would be great. It would be quite a bit faster than the Plaid, get about 400 mile range, and look great. Who cares about the rest of the garbage they've talked about? Just give us a fast convertible EV. That's it. 600 mile range is ridiculous and won't happen. There's no room for that many cells. And you don't need it. Gas thrusters are a bunch of hot air (literally) and a waste of time. Give me big tires, big brakes, four motors and let's go.

Because then they would have go give out free "roadsters". Better to just kill it.

 

[zanary]

That slide says it all. They have 5x more energy, but they are also 5.5x larger. That's why it's only a 16% range increase, I'm guessing that's mostly due to packing efficiency. The chemistry isn't dramatically different. The big innovation is being able to maintain the same power output, without overheating, with the new tab design. But, beyond that, the benefits are all in cost and ease of assembly. Nothing really relevant to the roadster.

Lithium ion chemistry is slowly still improving. I just started to see 5800 mAh 21700 cells, where before 5000 mAh was the limit. But, it's a slow rate of improvement. Nothing that will fit 200 kwhr in the Roadster.

Of course, the cross-sectional area is lower, so maybe they don't need 200 kwhr, maybe more like 150 kwhr to reach 600 miles... So, yeah. Maybe. With aero wheels.

The Model 3 LR gets 348 miles out of 82 kwhr. The Roadster probably as the same or lower cross sectional area than the Model 3. Ok, maybe 140 kwhr. Ok, I've slowly convinced myself it might happen.

Anyway, just build the damn thing already so I can buy it. I really don't care about all the extras. Just use the Plaid powertrain in the Roadster body and call it a day.

So if we assume that a Model S pack is 1660x964mm (I'm ignoring the height of the pack for now), then with 2170 we're looking at 3628 total cells, where as with 4680 we're looking at 756 (just doing straight math here). That would make the Roadster have 4.8% less cells, but each 4680 has 5x the energy. The roadster will be shorter than the Model S, so we would have to guess that the HV pack has smaller dimensions...

If this is all true, then how do they plan to get 200 KwH pack as indicated on the web site? More importantly if they were able to give us 600+ miles of range, how many cells would they need in a smaller pack? Many speculated that the entire frunk may be fitted with the additional cells, as is the hump in the hatch area (looks like the Ferrari GRC-4 Lusso with the hump in there), however Elon did mention that it will have plenty of storage as well... So the larger question is how they plan to get us all that in a smaller footprint roadster???

Is it possible that the 4680 used in the Roadster will have a new chemistry to achieve even more energy density, thereby having all of the cells in the HV pack equal the 200kwh to give us the 600+ miles range along with the massive storage... We also know that the roof of the roadster goes into the hatch area.

 

[n2mb_racing]

So if we assume that a Model S pack is 1660x964mm (I'm ignoring the height of the pack for now), then with 2170 we're looking at 3628 total cells, where as with 4680 we're looking at 756 (just doing straight math here). That would make the Roadster have 4.8% less cells, but each 4680 has 5x the energy. The roadster will be shorter than the Model S, so we would have to guess that the HV pack has smaller dimensions...

If this is all true, then how do they plan to get 200 KwH pack as indicated on the web site? More importantly if they were able to give us 600+ miles of range, how many cells would they need in a smaller pack? Many speculated that the entire frunk may be fitted with the additional cells, as is the hump in the hatch area (looks like the Ferrari GRC-4 Lusso with the hump in there), however Elon did mention that it will have plenty of storage as well... So the larger question is how they plan to get us all that in a smaller footprint roadster???

Is it possible that the 4680 used in the Roadster will have a new chemistry to achieve even more energy density, thereby having all of the cells in the HV pack equal the 200kwh to give us the 600+ miles range along with the massive storage... We also know that the roof of the roadster goes into the hatch area.

Did they really say 200 kwhr? I don't really know why they would need 200 kwhr to get 600 mile range. The model S LR does 400 on 100 kwhr.

 

[zanary]

Did they really say 200 kwhr? I don't really know why they would need 200 kwhr to get 600 mile range. The model S LR does 400 on 100 kwhr.

Yup. It's was mentioned verbally in the 2017 Next Gen Roadster reveal video which is still accessible on most video streaming platform. Here's a link to the moment where he indicates it's a 200kwh pack. Now, this was probably in the 18650 or early 2170 days which is why the frunk was sealed shut and there is a hump in the back (ala Ferrari GTC4/Lusso), but with 4680s and with some new chemistry with the increase energy density, maybe he can do 200 kWh pack as a skateboard like the Model S/X.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Yup. It's was mentioned verbally in the 2017 Next Gen Roadster reveal video which is still accessible on most video streaming platform. Here's a link to the moment where he indicates it's a 200kwh pack. Now, this was probably in the 18650 or early 2170 days which is why the frunk was sealed shut and there is a hump in the back (ala Ferrari GTC4/Lusso), but with 4680s and with some new chemistry with the increase energy density, maybe he can do 200 kWh pack as a skateboard like the Model S/X.

I see. Well, either way. I don't think it really needs 200 kwhr. It likely does need over 100 kwhr to get more peak power out. The Plaid is limited by the peak discharge of the batteries. So, to squeeze more peak power, they have to go larger. The extra range is an extra benefit. I don't need 600 mile range, but I do want sub 9 in the quarter mile.

Build it and ship it please.

 

[bolosky]

Did they really say 200 kwhr? I don't really know why they would need 200 kwhr to get 600 mile range. The model S LR does 400 on 100 kwhr.

They said 600 "real world" miles. The Plaid gets 400 ideal miles, which is in no way, shape or form 400 real world. My experience is quite a bit less than 300 when you drive at highway speed, with hills, and not running the battery to 0 (both for safety margin and because of the location of chargers). So, 600 real world would be more like 800-900 ideal.

 

[zanary]

They said 600 "real world" miles. The Plaid gets 400 ideal miles, which is in no way, shape or form 400 real world. My experience is quite a bit less than 300 when you drive at highway speed, with hills, and not running the battery to 0 (both for safety margin and because of the location of chargers). So, 600 real world would be more like 800-900 ideal.

(1) He said 600 Highway Miles very clearly in the video. He also mentioned SF to LA which one could guess that means one the grapevine, so if that is true then 600 miles is a good number.

EPA numbers are in extremely optional conditions. I betcha you he didn't have EPA numbers back in 2017, so they might be real-world (top off) numbers. 600 miles from SF to LA and back!

 

[n2mb_racing]

They said 600 "real world" miles. The Plaid gets 400 ideal miles, which is in no way, shape or form 400 real world. My experience is quite a bit less than 300 when you drive at highway speed, with hills, and not running the battery to 0 (both for safety margin and because of the location of chargers). So, 600 real world would be more like 800-900 ideal.

Yeah, I wouldn't expect Tesla to abandon their wildly optimistic ideal miles. Plaid with the 21s is actually rated at 348 miles. I manage 265 easily, with usually enough reserve to push to just about 300 miles. So, their ideal miles are not too crazy, if you were to drive 55 mph or something.

So, 600 ideal miles should be achievable without doubling the battery because the Roadster is smaller than the S, and likely has a lower cross-sectional area, and lower wind resistance.

 

[zanary]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect Tesla to abandon their wildly optimistic ideal miles. Plaid with the 21s is actually rated at 348 miles. I manage 265 easily, with usually enough reserve to push to just about 300 miles. So, their ideal miles are not too crazy, if you were to drive 55 mph or something.

So, 600 ideal miles should be achievable without doubling the battery because the Roadster is smaller than the S, and likely has a lower cross-sectional area, and lower wind resistance.

I prefer to look at Ideal being EPA miles, vs. what they achieve as real world... I'm optimist on that front, so with that said I expect realistic milages to be around 600 miles, and ideal or EPA two be more.

I see the a potential CF tub, CF panels, CF rims, CCB all contributing to a low mass vehicle. I also think that they can get the 200 kWh or close to that in a single HV pack in a skateboard design, and then on top of that the new Model S Plaid new glass roof being lighter which is needed for the removable roof of the roadster... All contributing to a low weight, so I'm hoping that 600 is realistic milage numbers between SF an LA over the Grapevine and back. If that is true, this is a game changer!

 

[phantasms]

"it's coming" and "What's your definition of soon"

This was great...

 

[untilcomplete]

with the fresher 3 coming soon that looks similar to the roadster, I think they may use the updated 3 base to make the roadster. Maybe using plaid motors..

 

[n2mb_racing]

with the fresher 3 coming soon that looks similar to the roadster, I think they may use the updated 3 base to make the roadster. Maybe using plaid motors..

Would be interesting, since they are actually model 3/y motors.

 

[phantasms]

with the fresher 3 coming soon that looks similar to the roadster, I think they may use the updated 3 base to make the roadster. Maybe using plaid motors..

I would doubt this simply because the battery will have to be very different on the Roadster than the 3/Y and that’s a large fundamental part of the car.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Also, I just can't see Elon selling: "The NextGen Tesla Roadster -- built in the M3/MY platform".

 

[johnmodely]

What happened with the roadster? This project dead they haven't mentioned anything about it for years it seems...

 

[phantasms]

Welcome to the club. Where have you been?

 

[qdeathstar]

Whst can they really do tgst will justify adding $200l to model s plaid?

 

[LoudMusic]

You're gonna have to eat your words when it's released in two weeks!

These two weeks are taking forever.