Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Hopefully happy end users getting their Powerwalls installed soon, maybe not end of year soon, but hopefully Q1 soon.

I am so looking forward to a new revenue stream

Q3 report on Tesla Energy product:

TE.JPG


and cell production:

te1.JPG


Powerwall diversifies Tesla so neatly and de-risks Gigafactory.

I expect powerwalls to sell like hot cakes. A survey by Energy Consumers Australia, a gov advisory body, established that 90% of households are looking into renewables with storage.
 
Huge cap-ex for the M3 hasn't even started yet.

Not correct, next to the GigaFactory investment several M3 investments are already publicly known. Examples :

- Tesla has already done much of the R&D for the M3.
- Tesla already has a new paintshop installed that is capable of 500k / year.

You will find several sources of this :
Dürr receives largest robot order from Tesla | Spray Finishing News

The car body paint shop has two sealing, two primer and two top coat lines. It is designed to paint as many as 500,000 bodies per year. The plastic parts paint shop delivers the necessary amount of bumpers to meet body production demands. Primer and base coat are waterborne in both paint shop areas, car body and plastic parts. The clear coat is a 2k solvent based paint. The paint shop, which Tesla ordered in 2014, will be ready by end of 2015.
 
Not correct, next to the GigaFactory investment several M3 investments are already publicly known. Examples :

- Tesla has already done much of the R&D for the M3.
- Tesla already has a new paintshop installed that is capable of 500k / year.

You will find several sources of this :
Dürr receives largest robot order from Tesla | Spray Finishing News

The car body paint shop has two sealing, two primer and two top coat lines. It is designed to paint as many as 500,000 bodies per year. The plastic parts paint shop delivers the necessary amount of bumpers to meet body production demands. Primer and base coat are waterborne in both paint shop areas, car body and plastic parts. The clear coat is a 2k solvent based paint. The paint shop, which Tesla ordered in 2014, will be ready by end of 2015.

Yes, there were some investments since late 2014, but the huge investments will only follow when the M3 gets closer to a release date. (The S and X serve as good templates, see the spikes in the quarters before the models were released).

Same for the GF. As I mentioned before neither Tesla nor Panasonic invested a lot so far compared to the "full" $5 billion planned for the Gigafactory project:

Tesla invested around $261 million for construction until October 2015 and Panasonic invested just a few million so far. Even if we add some machinery to be later relocated to the GF that's certainly less than 10% of the planned total. From Tesla's latest 10-Q:

"...have acquired land for the site of our Gigafactory and have incurred $261.0 million of construction costs as of September 30, 2015."

"In 2014, we began construction of our Gigafactory facility in Nevada. Tesla’s contribution to total capital expenditures is expected to be about $2.0 billion over the next 5 years. During the nine months ended September 30, 2015, we used cash of $158.6 million towards the construction of this project and expect to spend up to $300 million for the full year."

Looking at Tesla's balance sheet there is a huge cap-ex need for both the M3 and the rest of GF project in 2016-2020 imho (of course most people on this forum will disagree and say that Tesla can somehow pay for this with operational cash-flow beginning in 2016. I strongly disagree).

To repeat for those who didn't follow the thread earlier. The entire $2 billion Tesla raised in early 2014 is already gone:

The cash once earmarked primarily for the GF project, namely the $2bn raised in early 2014, is gone as of September 2015:

To keep things simple, I won't look at A/R and other items, just rounded cash numbers from Tesla's quarterly reports:


  • In Dec 2013, Tesla had around $ 0.85 billion in cash (before the capital round in early 2014)
  • In June 2015, Tesla was again down to $ 1.15 billion in cash
  • In Sept 2015, Tesla had around $ 1.42 billion in cash (but of course Tesla raised another fresh $740 million in August 2015. As of Sept 30, 2015 the remaining portion of the fresh money raised during the quarter is already included on the balance sheet.)

These cash balance snapshots show that the small remaining portion of the $2bn in cash raised in early 2014 was burned (or "wisely invested" for bulls) during Q3 2015.
 
Last edited:
Interesting that on the 3Q conference call the CFO said "Clearly, 2016, our CapEx should be less than 2015. And then we'll provide you further guidance on that in the next earnings call."

Musk then chimed in with "Sorry, I was going to say, like, we do have like a very strong push towards free cash flow. I mean, that is – our aspiration is to be positive – I do emphasize, this is an aspiration, not a promise, but our aspiration is to be positive cash flow in Q1."
 
1) Advanced Li-Ion EV batteries will become a commodity and LG, Samsung etc. can produce them for any car maker on equal terms with Panasonic and other suppliers as needed.
Their combined order volumes will be magnitudes bigger than Tesla's over time (assuming EV demand increases).
Meanwhile Tesla is only building a pilot plant in Nevada, right now. It can't equip 500k cars/year unless it invests additional billions (which aren't available, see balance sheet).

I don't think you understand the size of the pilot and that Tesla doesnt need the entire factory overnight. Panasonic production that is currently used by Tesla + the pilot will still be vastly more than what LG can supply/will have orders for in this decade. 20,000 Bolts/year = 1.2GWh/yr. 30,000 Bolts = 1.8GWh/yr. Tesla 2015 = 4.25GWh, Tesla 2016 = 6.5GWh/yr + Storage. In 2014 Tesla was at 2.9GWh (over double of the 20,000 Bolts that GM plans annually). At it's peak sales the Chevy Volt used less than 1GWh of batteries. So your complaints about the Gigafactory being just a pilot and the entire plant not being magically up instantly are unfounded. In 2016 that pilot factory will produce more battery packs than GM ever used in a year. By 2017 when the Bolt actually has any volume, that pilot factory will produce more batteries than GM will use in that year (or has ever used in year in history) and with no known EV plans other than the Bolt, and no other EVs expected in volume until at least 2018 that use LG batteries (more likely 2020), LG is unlikely to be able to or want to compete in volume with Panasonic + Tesla. And I would assume the same applies to price.
 
Could you at least quote my arguments accurately?

I wrote that TSLA is overvalued at current share prices (especially including future dilution due to huge cap-ex needs until at least 2020!), not doomed. It may be doomed and declare bankrupcty in a worst-case scenario, but that is not my main scenario. Someone might pick up the pieces for cheap before then (similar to its valuation in 2012).

I wrote that

1) Advanced Li-Ion EV batteries will become a commodity and LG, Samsung etc. can produce them for any car maker on equal terms with Panasonic and other suppliers as needed.
Their combined order volumes will be magnitudes bigger than Tesla's over time (assuming EV demand increases).
Meanwhile Tesla is only building a pilot plant in Nevada, right now. It can't equip 500k cars/year unless it invests additional billions (which aren't available, see balance sheet).

2) More competition and commoditization will squeeze Tesla's market value by around 2020 or even well before that.
Also, Tesla's M3 is likely late to market (and ramp-up will again be slow imho). This means Tesla will enter a very competitive EV and PHEV market below $50k by 2019-2020 when it is finally ready to ramp up M3 output.*

3) There's a risk of completely new battery technology being ready within 5-10 years and Tesla over-investing in current technology due to its vertical integration.
As a small company, Tesla doesn't have the luxury to simply write down such assets (as Renault-Nissan had to with its EV assets recently) and move on.

Your two bold (see quote) statements must be from other people, I never made those. In fact, I'm bullish on EVs long-term (1-2 decades), everybody is working on better battery technology - not just for cars, but also consumer electronics. It's obvious prices are coming down and will be competitive with ICE cars in most price categories around 2020-2025 c.p.. By then, better charging infrastructure will also be ready for EVs.

But I think most people severely underestimate the time needed to get EVs to double-digit car marketshare: The car market can't be disrupted like tech and other fast-moving sectors. Too many people still think Tesla's M3 is the next iPhone. This (tech) analogy is completely wrong imho, due to replacement and cap-ex cycles.

If there's a disruption coming in the car market it's autonomous driving or what pundits like to call "TaaS". Everybody in the industry is working on that - just as with EVs, Tesla will have no advantage there.


-------
* I still think Tesla's biggest strategic mistake is going down-market and try to build a $30-50k (upper) mass-market car. They should stick to the S and X niches imho and never build a car below $50k. If so, they also wouldn't need to build a Gigafactory.



Uninformed? Where? Can you quote specific items or quotes from here or my articles at SA and I will address them.
Is the above your full argument? If so, then I would mostly agree and say this
1. Yes, eventually certain battery chemistries may become a commodity. If production escalates to 3x what it is today in a few years, sure. Since these will be used for sustainable transportation then Tesla succeeds as this is only the beginning of the massive ramp for EV's

2. You've stated previously that you think Tesla has a lead and I would agree. And I think you believe that other companies will catch up quick. Maybe by 2020? Sure, lets say that happens. Again sustainable transportation succeeds and Tesla's mission is to accelerate that and thus Tesla succeeds.

3. Sure there is this risk and Tesla is pursuing this as well. Lets say another company develops a better tech and brings it to market. Great, again accelerating sustainable transportation.

I like when you number out your arguments/thoughts so we can better discuss in a forum.

I'll add my further thoughts

A. Tesla will need more money. Sales won't be enough and there will be a need to raise more cash next year and maybe 2017. I don't worry about this **IF** Model X wins MTCOTY (Motor Trend Car of The Year) and journalists have positive reviews.

B. Autonomous Driving is the future. TaaS (Tesla as a Service) is how I think of it...Totally agree with your here. Once you've driven by algorithm, just like driving EV, you can't go back. It is so much more pleasant when in traffic or a boring commute and I could instruct my car to go off and earn money by shuttling folks around while I'm at work. The company that establishes itself as a leader here will dominate the market.

C. I appreciate your participation in this forum.

D. Building a mid priced sedan is the best thing they can do **IF** Model X is a hit. If it isn't, there will be scrambling, make no mistake, as Tesla can't afford to make a car that doesn't sell like hotcakes.

E. Building up Tesla Energy is also the best thing they can do. In fact, in the future, they'll need to grow their variants. For instance: Buy a Model 3 and get a 2kWh Powerwall/Solar array/charger for cheap. Huge upside and downside here, but this is an all in bet for sustainable energy and transportation and this is the direction Tesla is pushing and winning.
 
I would like to suggest again that we make a thread just for talking to Bears. I had suggested "bear cave" because its cute, but it could just be "discussions with the bears" or something. The conversation could be this exactly, TFTF or someone laying out their argument, Bulls attempting to refute it and a conversation happens. This is clearly off topic for the gigafactory, and its off topic everywhere it occurs. I would create it but without buy in from a Bear there is no point.

TFTF I suggest you create it, lay out your best case point by point, close to what you did, and we start from there. By making a special place for it, those who are so emotional as to lash out probably wouldn't go there so the conversation might be more civil just by selection bias.
 
Yes, there were some investments since late 2014, but the huge investments will only follow when the M3 gets closer to a release date. (The S and X serve as good templates, see the spikes in the quarters before the models were released).

Same for the GF. As I mentioned before neither Tesla nor Panasonic invested a lot so far compared to the "full" $5 billion planned for the Gigafactory project:

Tesla invested around $261 million for construction until October 2015 and Panasonic invested just a few million so far. Even if we add some machinery to be later relocated to the GF that's certainly less than 10% of the planned total. From Tesla's latest 10-Q:



Looking at Tesla's balance sheet there is a huge cap-ex need for both the M3 and the rest of GF project in 2016-2020 imho (of course most people on this forum will disagree and say that Tesla can somehow pay for this with operational cash-flow beginning in 2016. I strongly disagree).

To repeat for those who didn't follow the thread earlier. The entire $2 billion Tesla raised in early 2014 is already gone:

I don't doubt there are some pretty big capex spends related to Model 3 coming in 2016 and 2017. However, there are already some pretty big spends in 2015. As mentioned before, the paint shop upgrade fills out the capacity to 500,000, or basically through 2020, through the entire Model 3 expansion. The initial Model 3 launch capacity is probably about double current factory capacity which is about 100,000-125,000 run rate a year. They are already sizing for that expansion. For example, the acquisition of the tool and die company was not for Model S or X. It's purely for Model 3. The Lanthrop facility is only necessary in the context of Model 3. I think many people look at Tesla's 2014 and 2015 capex spending as what is necessary to run the company at a steady state for Model S and then the expansion for Model X. That is not accurate. Tesla is well in the spending cycle for Model 3 and has been for some time. Of course, Tesla is managing cash through the entire Model 3 build out including the Gigafactory.

The late ramp up of the Model X - and in this context, I'm talking about the 4-6 months late that corresponds to the capex spending, not the original estimate of late 2013 given back in early 2012 before the Model S production even commenced. That 4-6 months of delay made the cash situation a problem, and that is about the worst case scenario for Tesla these days. They had to raise cash that causes the stock to drop and the product isn't ready. For the company, it turned out to be quite easy... $700 million later and they are in a confident position for the Model X launch. The hit to the stock overall wasn't even the cash raise per se, but the tardiness pushing to December. If the 2nd row seat issue didn't raise its ugly head causing an additional 2 month delay, then there is likely no medium term stock price hit at all for the cash raise.

Looking at the Gigafactory... originally, the estimate was for up to $2 billion spent by Tesla, another $2 billion by partners, and $1 billion by tax breaks and the like. Original estimate was for $4 billion to $5 billion total. The Gigafactory is now about 36% larger. So the original pilot plant of about 20% got juggled around some, including removing a partially built structure. A speech given by a Storey County representative confirms the addition of a floor to the Gigafactory, hence the footprint of the phase 1 pilot plant changed. I think this also corresponds to the "slow down" of work that was reported that was really a lull in construction as the factory was reconfigured for the additional floor. That threw some people for a loop, especially bears. Now the pilot plant is 14% of the full plant, but is really just about the same size as the original plans for the pilot plant... 2 million square feet. So the original plant was to pilot plant would have been about 20-25% of $1.6 to $2 billion, or $320 million to $500 million. Lo and behold, Tesla spent $261 million so far in construction costs (not necessarily all costs), $158.6 million in 2015, estimate up to $300 million for all of 2015:

Construction costs
Prior to 2015: $102.4 million
Total spent so far: $261 million
total for 2015: $300 million
Total estimate by end of 2015: $402.4 million

Well, $402.4 million is right within the original ballpark of the pilot factory of $320 to 500 million.

Panasonic already committed about $800 million (from memory, have to look it back up) for plant expansion in their current fiscal year. Of course, we don't know how much of that they are spending on the Gigafactory pilot plant, but given the other named projects, most of this is earmarked for the Gigafactory. Further, they really can't do all that much on site until there is an inside to work within. If Panasonic has already ordered tons and tons of equipment, is there any way for us to tell? Without sources within companies that provide such equipment or within Panasonic, we don't know. They aren't all that open with their disclosures as is typical for many companies in Japan and many parts of Asia.

Therefore, if your investment thesis is partially based on the Gigafactory being late, or not happening, I strongly suggest you re-examine the available evidence. You have to disbelieve Panasonic's IR presentation where they say they are spending large amounts of money on the Gigafactory - they don't bother to highlight expenditures that are small in their IR. All the actual data points indicate that the Gigafactory is, if anything, early. The temporary CoA was granted and Tesla Energy product assembly is in the process of happening inside the Gigafactory pilot plant. Which means there is an inside.
 
Last edited:
Great discussion. Nice to see financial details and real data.

Summary:
The 400MM spent by end of 2015 will enable production to start in Q1. Tesla is on track to spend about 300MM per year through 2020 to complete the 2bn project. Tesla Energy is projected to have 1bn in 2016 sales. At 15% they can invest 150mm back into the GF and only draw 170mm from reserves. They should be on track for 2-3bn in revenue in 2017, which should produce 300-450 in free cash flow. Assuming consistent investment levels, the GF will be cash flow positive in 2017 and will improve margins for Tesla Motors by reducing battery pack costs. Other investment requirements (Model 3, etc are off track and require their own thread).
A new thread around cash flow requirements through 2020 could be very interesting.
 
Fairly thorough review of status of Gigafactory from the perspective of economic impact on Nevada in the Reno Gazette:

Tesla Gigafactory one year later: Economic boost but lagging transparency

They do complain about lack of transparency but then they have personal experience with this as their reporters were involved in an altercation attempting to force access to the site.

Some interesting numbers on spending and economic impact.
 
One small addendum to that, is that it wasn't all for the GF, because at the very least some of the $2B paid off the US government loan.


If you are just coming to this thread, let me remind you: tesla energy is bringing in $1bln in revenue in 2016 and $2-3bln in 2017... And that has nothing to do with mx/ms sales or the start of m3 sales at the end of 2017/beginning of 2018.
 
There is an article in today's (Sun Dec 6) Reno Gazette-Journal (remember, they have a bit of a...situation...with Tesla) that raps the knuckles, not too terribly hard, both of Tesla and of certain state officials, for not being on time with statutory reporting of progress.

The terms of the tax abatement agreements provided to the Gigafactory include regular updates as to what has been accomplished; how many local employees there are; what services the county has incurred as a result of the factory and how much they have cost....basically, a whole lot of paper traces that need be kept up and that apparently a number of entities haven't been doing. It absolutely looks as though nothing even close to nefarious has occurred but it does seem to me that if someone wanted to slam Tesla, the failure of some i-dotting and t-crossing could provide a little bit of ammo.

Link here: Tesla Gigafactory one year later: Economic boost but lagging transparency
 
I found that prior link by digging around, as a result of a text a non-Tesloid made to me that went as follows:

"Why is Tesla downsizing giga plant so much in Sparks??? Heard an interview with the state of Nevada squawking about building a plant only 1/4 the size of what was originally proposed...State officials screaming about removing a subsidy because of it...Mayor of Sparks saying he was highly discouraged..."

Now, I can only imagine the radio station he was listening to in order to have picked up that. So I apprised him of the planned size increase; found all I could about the Mayor (only public statement in a few months is that he announced he has Parkinson's); and went hunting for what someone could have used to write that officials were screaming.

Whack-a-mole can get tiring....
 
I believe the loan was paid off out of the first fundraising round, not the one that financed the Gigafactory.

Again, Tesla wanted to make believe (or maybe they believed it themselves back then) the public/investors that this $2 billion round would finance the Gigafactory. It didn't.

The latest 10-Q states that only $261 million have been invested so far and the RGJ article linked above even uses a lower number: $238 million.

In any case, that's a fraction of the full investment needed until 2020 while the full $2 billion raised are already spent (obviously mostly on other purposes).



PS: This article makes a good analogy with the nascent solar market. Being the "biggest" player early on doesn't garantuee success, far from it because of technology gaps in the future:

Could Falling Costs Be a Bad Omen for Tesla Motors' Gigafactory? -- The Motley Fool

Remember when Q-Cells was the biggest solar manufacturer in the world and poised to dominate the panel industry for decades thanks to economies of scale and advanced tech compared to Asian competitors? That was just a few short years ago...

Margins for all kinds of batteries have been equally razor-thin for years. Just because a new sector has exploding revenue (see solar panels, flat-screen TVs, flash chips and computer chips as recent examples...) doesn't mean op margins are good or early leaders won't be toppled by fast followers with deeper pockets.
 
Last edited:
Again, Tesla wanted to make believe (or maybe they believed it themselves back then) the public/investors that this $2 billion round would finance the Gigafactory. It didn't.

The latest 10-Q states that only $261 million have been invested so far and the RGJ article linked above even uses a lower number: $238 million.

In any case, that's a fraction of the full investment needed until 2020 while the full $2 billion raised are already spent (obviously mostly on other purposes).



PS: This article makes a good analogy with the nascent solar market. Being the "biggest" player early on doesn't garantuee success, far from it because of technology gaps in the future:

Could Falling Costs Be a Bad Omen for Tesla Motors' Gigafactory? -- The Motley Fool

Remember when Q-Cells was the biggest solar manufacturer in the world and poised to dominate the panel industry for decades thanks to economies of scale and advanced tech compared to Asian competitors? That was just a few short years ago...

Margins for all kinds of batteries have been equally razor-thin for years. Just because a new sector has exploding revenue (see solar panels, flat-screen TVs, flash chips and computer chips as recent examples...) doesn't mean op margins are good or early leaders won't be toppled by fast followers with deeper pockets.

If that was all they were doing, selling the batteries, then sure, I would be worried. But they aren't. They are sticking the batteries into a product and selling that product.

Solar panels is a commodity, batteries also a commodity, I suppose one could say that TVs are a commodity, at the very lease the screen itself which was the biggest cost factor and what had a major price collapse.

Now if you wanted to say that the price of new cars was collapsing, then maybe there would be concern. But it isn't. As long as Tesla is able to get a bottom dollar price on their cells such that it brings down the overall cost of building the car then it doesn't matter. The only concern of a collapsed price would be that they are forced to sell either with slightly less margins on the car or stick these cells in a higher cost vehicle.

Consider that LG comes out tomorrow with a 50$ cell cost. Don't you think that Tesla would be the first person they would come to and ask for their business? Tesla never wanted to build a factory but just like other things they have vertically integrated... They are doing this because noone else would.

If LG sold a 50$ cell they would buy it in an instant and make longer range cars and have the Model 3 much sooner (and at better margins).

Consider that their GM on the Model S is around 25% with a cell cost of ~175-200$ if their gigafactory becomes "obsolete at 100$ they will just stick all those cells in the Model S, buy the cheaper cells for the Model 3 and still improve the margins on their Model S in the process.

Note that the gigafactory at capacity is to supply 500k cars a year, if they want to get to millions they will need 3 more of these plants. So if LG came out tomorrow or even in the next 5 years with a 50$ cost they would just pay LG for all their cells and this magical factory that sprouted up from nowhere and happily avoid building more of their own plants.
 
If that was all they were doing, selling the batteries, then sure, I would be worried. But they aren't. They are sticking the batteries into a product and selling that product.

Solar panels is a commodity, batteries also a commodity, I suppose one could say that TVs are a commodity, at the very lease the screen itself which was the biggest cost factor and what had a major price collapse.

Now if you wanted to say that the price of new cars was collapsing, then maybe there would be concern. But it isn't. As long as Tesla is able to get a bottom dollar price on their cells such that it brings down the overall cost of building the car then it doesn't matter. The only concern of a collapsed price would be that they are forced to sell either with slightly less margins on the car or stick these cells in a higher cost vehicle.

Consider that LG comes out tomorrow with a 50$ cell cost. Don't you think that Tesla would be the first person they would come to and ask for their business? Tesla never wanted to build a factory but just like other things they have vertically integrated... They are doing this because noone else would.

If LG sold a 50$ cell they would buy it in an instant and make longer range cars and have the Model 3 much sooner (and at better margins).

Consider that their GM on the Model S is around 25% with a cell cost of ~175-200$ if their gigafactory becomes "obsolete at 100$ they will just stick all those cells in the Model S, buy the cheaper cells for the Model 3 and still improve the margins on their Model S in the process.

Note that the gigafactory at capacity is to supply 500k cars a year, if they want to get to millions they will need 3 more of these plants. So if LG came out tomorrow or even in the next 5 years with a 50$ cost they would just pay LG for all their cells and this magical factory that sprouted up from nowhere and happily avoid building more of their own plants.


Major point of distinction necessary here:

solar panels and batteries are not commodities. Electricity is.

solar panels and batteries are technologies that create and store electricity.

technology by definition must iterate and improve its function in order to retain value.

Tesla is a technology company. The Gigafactory produced technology.

The cell/pack technology iterates and improves its function over time. As these improvements occur, more car packs will be able to be produced given the same production space. Ie, the Gigafactory will produce much more then 500k cars worth of batteries.

Margins will increase over time as well.

Same for energy storage margins.
 
Last edited:
the Gigafactory will produce much more then 500k cars worth of batteries. (...)

Margins will increase over time as well.

Same for energy storage margins.

Well, first Tesla and Panasonic have to invest the missing $4.7 billion to get to such production levels.

And why should margins for EV and storage cells/batteries automatically improve over time? You seem to state this as a fact.

If or as EVs and ESS/local storage become more mainstream over the coming decades, the opposite could happen. Operating margins could get squeezed even further with growing volumes. As with the solar panel, NAND flash, TV screen examples...margins remain ultra-low today even though revenue opportunities exploded.