Tesla Glass Tile Solar Roof Update

[Barklikeadog]

Thanks for your input. It looks like Tesla calculates the credit in your example by ($23,800)(.4) = $9,520. $64,200-$9,520 = $54,680, close enough to your figure above. I would NOT sign a tax return as paid preparer using those Tesla Tax Techniques.

How much of the cost is demolition and disposition of the old roof? That is not a cost eligible for the credit. Nor are the flashings and other materials needed to replace a roof.

To use an extreme example, if a person replaced a conventional roof with another conventional roof, simultaneous with installing PV panels over 60% of the area, would he be eligible to receive the tax credit on the replacement roof? No. (With emphasis.)

If a client came to me in a few years with your example, I would have to determine an approximate and reasonable value of the cost of the solar tiles that exceeded the cost of the roof. I would hope that the final invoicing might give us some idea as to the components of the job.

As far as Tesla gaming the system: It is hard to say. It only takes one bulldog auditor to discover that something was exaggerated or misrepresented for the chips to fall for that one taxpayer, especially if the assessment winds up in Tax Court, and the taxpayer loses. Then it is just a matter of the IRS sorting out all the returns that have higher-than-normal residential solar credits on their tax returns to commence a mass correspondence audit.

One thing about our good buddies at the IRS: they may not be the sharpest tools in the shed. But they do have the benefit of compiling billions of pieces of data from 150 million tax returns and then determining how each of our returns stacks up against everybody else. Their data can zero in on zip code, census tracts and other demographics readily available. If the "average" solar credit where you live is $4,000-$7,500, and you claim $16,000, you might be receiving an audit notice.

And we should not forget the Section 6662 accuracy-related penalty at 20% of the understated tax, plus interest from April 15 of the original due date.

THIS

 

[googlepeakoil]

I am now evaluating a new roof for my house. The Solar Roof cost will be, if their table is all-inclusive, almost identical with the ceramic barrel tiles we have just priced, although the Solar Roof will be a different color. A few Powerwalls will let me eliminate utility interconnect. With electricity price of 27.8 cents kWh I get pretty quick payback. The way I see this people who live in high electrical cost areas such as CA and HI and the majority of countries will find rapid payback too. No question, conventional solar panels will be cheaper and more efficient. So, I think this makes perfect sense for new construction or roof replacement projects, but otherwise traditional solar panels are the was to go unless the aesthetics justify the extra costs.

If my house were in the available country order list I'd have already ordered. It isn't so I haven't.

I think the Solar Roof will make quite good money, and will be installed mostly with new house construction, where the marginal cost reduces dramatically and the marginal benefit can be disproportionate.

I haven't a clue how to value this yet, in TSLA terms.

Is it true the Powerwall needs to be connected to the grid to know the grid 50hz timing. I've read that you have to still be connected to the utility to get that?

 

[googlepeakoil]

Where can I find the kW capacity of the Solar Roof calculated from my inputs?

$88,600 Value of energy

-$53,000 Cost of roof

-$12,500 Cost of 2 Powerwall batteries

+$17,300 Tax credit

1,791 Roof square footage

$200 Monthly electric bill

2 Powerwall batteries

$40,400 Net earned over 30 years​

... so I can compare the Solar Roof to the 6.3kW (19 x 330W Panasonic panels) and 6.1kW (19 x 320W LG panels) conventional solar system estimates I received.

Can we work backwards from the "net earned over 30 years" what payment are they working this out on???

 

[googlepeakoil]

The average American stays in their home for a total of 7 years. So taking into account the average premium of a house with solar is only around $5-7k there is no way you can make a return on investment this roof. And they're assuming the net metering laws will stay the same over the span of a third of a century which is highly unlikely. Too much risk and costs for too little of a reward.

Does that 7yr figure include crack addicts staying in motels 1 night
I'd have thought most of us thinking about solar, aren't your average person and would plan to be there longer.

 

[Reciprocity]

The average American stays in their home for a total of 7 years. So taking into account the average premium of a house with solar is only around $5-7k there is no way you can make a return on investment this roof. And they're assuming the net metering laws will stay the same over the span of a third of a century which is highly unlikely. Too much risk and costs for too little of a reward.

If you assume having a roof on your house is an optional thing, cuz its kind of important. If you have a brand new roof, do not tear it off to put this roof on. If you have crappy old, worn dingy tile or asphalt, then the roof will actually add value to your home which you will get back out when you sell it in 7 years. Also when you sell it, you will be including the solar, because you really cant take it with you in this case so you will get 18 years of that value out as well. There is more to it then just the value of electricity generated.

 

[Merrill]

This is a little off topic but related, would like some input on cleaning solar panels. I have done some research and some say keep them clean and others say do not bother. My panels just get dusty and have some tree pollen at this time of year, have have been washing them 2 or 3 times a year. Any input from those of you who have solar as to what you recommend.

 

[jddssc121]

This is a little off topic but related, would like some input on cleaning solar panels. I have done some research and some say keep them clean and others say do not bother. My panels just get dusty and have some tree pollen at this time of year, have have been washing them 2 or 3 times a year. Any input from those of you who have solar as to what you recommend.

I was told by our installer if you're paying someone to clean them once per year ($100 bucks or whatever) you're wasting your $, because the small uptick you get in efficiency from sparkling clean panels isn't going to cover the $100 annual outlay. If you want to do it yourself, then can't hurt.... just don't expect a dramatic change in output.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

This is a little off topic but related, would like some input on cleaning solar panels. I have done some research and some say keep them clean and others say do not bother. My panels just get dusty and have some tree pollen at this time of year, have have been washing them 2 or 3 times a year. Any input from those of you who have solar as to what you recommend.

I see the potential for something similar to Looj or Roomba. Someone needs to come up with a cheap robot that can autonomously clean the panels as needed.

 

[neroden]

I think in 20 years many owners will see the new Tesla solar roof will view the output as woefully inadequate. The advantage of standing seam is the easy redo of solar/inverter/battery in 10-20 years.

That's certainly a possibility. I'm hoping that the solar roof tiles (size of solar tile -- small) can cover more of the nooks and crannies of my annoyingly and unnecessarily complex roof with actual solar than standard panels (minimum unit size being a very large rectangle) can. My extension is going to have a very simple roof.

20 years may be about right. After about 5 years, I expect a lull in the improvement of solar cell efficiency as the business hits the limits of single-junction while we wait for dual-junction to come down in price. 10 to 20 years may be around the time when dual-junction starts being really cost-competitive. Of course, if Tesla is still in business, they can replace your tiles with tiles with newer solar cells.

This new roof's best use is for people with south facing houses that will never put conventional panels on the front of their house. But I still expect that the high price/long life feature will prove to be a disadvantage for many buyers.

I will add that like jbcarioca, I won't install it unless it's possible to run while the grid is blacked out. A manual transfer switch is a minimum necessary feature.

 

[Merrill]

I was told by our installer if you're paying someone to clean them once per year ($100 bucks or whatever) you're wasting your $, because the small uptick you get in efficiency from sparkling clean panels isn't going to cover the $100 annual outlay. If you want to do it yourself, then can't hurt.... just don't expect a dramatic change in output.

Thanks, I do it myself and unfortunately I'm a bit OCD so want the panels clean I realize there is not much gain in output.

 

[roblab]

Is it true the Powerwall needs to be connected to the grid to know the grid 50hz timing. I've read that you have to still be connected to the utility to get that?

I have PbA battery backup with Outback system. It kicks on when the power goes out, runs about a day with no power coming down the line. I always assumed it checked the Hz when the power was on, but it can't do that when there is no power. I would guess it makes up its own Hz. I've never had any problem with it, and I would assume that Tesla Power has figured this out.

 

[Ampster]

In our area, the old lines are not set up to handle power being fed back
into the system. So you get the news stories of residents who spend a lot on a solar installation, only to find out that they have to
pay the power company thousands of dollars for the modifications.

That defies the laws of physics. Power only flows one way from the source to the load. When solar panels are generating the energy flows through the busbars in you panel to the loads in your house. Any extra flows up to the transformer and back down to the loads of the neighbors sharing that transformer. Unless you are talking about a 25 kWatt installation you are talking about ampacities below the capacity of most home electrical panels. To me your utility is using a bogus argument for prevent load departure. If they continue that kind of nonsense they will just accelerate the installation of PowerWalls and PV solar behind the meter. Behind the meter means you only need a building permit to install and no utility permission is required because you are not feeding the grid.

 

[SCOOBY]

"That defies the laws of physics."

No it doesn't. It's certainly possible to install equipment to prevent power being back fed to the grid and I can imagine utilities might want to do this for safety reasons (though I have no idea which utilities, if any, may have done this).

 

[brucet999]

I just got off the phone with Solar City in a most disappointing call. I talked to a polite young man who knows nothing about the product. It appears that prospective buyers cannot talk to anyone knowledgable about the product.

I know what my annual kWh usage is, so I asked what the rated output of the tiles will be so I could calculate how many square feet of active Solar Roof tiles I would need for a south-facing roof at 5/12 pitch. Answer: "That hasn't been made public yet"

I also asked about danger to later workmen walking on slick glass tiles to access vents, skylights, chimney, etc. Answer, "I don't know the specifics about that, but our installers wear safely restraints"

Basically, the guy knows nothing about the tiles, referred me to the web site info (the one with the wildly inaccurate estimating guides), and concluded by suggesting that I put down a $1,000 deposit to get in line for a site survey (on a house that won't start construction until August) and then at some future time their designers would figure out specifics for my roof. I might as well have been talking to Nancy ("We will have to pass the bill to find out what is in it") Pelosi.

If the guy doing a site survey is going to be able to estimate cost of a new roof to handle my solar needs, then they must already know the rated output of the tiles. The least they could do is to provide the information to prospective buyers before we put down a $1,000 deposit.

I knew when I put down a deposit to buy my Model S what the performance would be. Tesla Energy wants a $1,000 now with pretty much no information upfront from them.

Concrete tile roofs generally cost $300 to $500 per square, installed. Even the inactive Solar Roof tiles cost $1100 per square, installed. (I guess that's why the website breakage videos compare to slate and clay tile, which typically run twice as much as concrete tiles.) Seems like sellers of a product that costs twice to three times competitive products (exclusive of PV capability) should be ready to explain why it is worth it.

I was all excited about Tesla's beautiful new roof products that, per Elon, "would cost less than conventional roof materials", but now I'll start shopping other PV and roof tile options.

 

[Ampster]

No it doesn't. It's certainly possible to install equipment to prevent power being back fed to the grid and I can imagine utilities might want to do this for safety reasons (though I have no idea which utilities, if any, may have done this).

No it doesn't what? Flow in one direction. Here is the definition:

Conventional Current Direction. The particles that carry charge through wires in a circuit are mobile electrons. The electric field direction within a circuit is by definition the direction that positive test charges are pushed. Thus, these negatively charged electrons move in the direction opposite the electric field. Source: www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circuits/Lesson-2/Electric-Current
​

Show us how a small solar system on a shared transformer would overload the grid or for that matter the wire from the transformer to someone's house. Are you talking about safety equipment to prevent linemen from being shocked when the grid goes down. Those kind of devices exist in any grid tie inverter. There is no need for them on the grid nor do they exist on the grid.

 

[mmd]

Thanks for your input. It looks like Tesla calculates the credit in your example by ($23,800)(.4) = $9,520. $64,200-$9,520 = $54,680, close enough to your figure above. I would NOT sign a tax return as paid preparer using those Tesla Tax Techniques.

How much of the cost is demolition and disposition of the old roof? That is not a cost eligible for the credit. Nor are the flashings and other materials needed to replace a roof.

To use an extreme example, if a person replaced a conventional roof with another conventional roof, simultaneous with installing PV panels over 60% of the area, would he be eligible to receive the tax credit on the replacement roof? No. (With emphasis.)

If a client came to me in a few years with your example, I would have to determine an approximate and reasonable value of the cost of the solar tiles that exceeded the cost of the roof. I would hope that the final invoicing might give us some idea as to the components of the job.

As far as Tesla gaming the system: It is hard to say. It only takes one bulldog auditor to discover that something was exaggerated or misrepresented for the chips to fall for that one taxpayer, especially if the assessment winds up in Tax Court, and the taxpayer loses. Then it is just a matter of the IRS sorting out all the returns that have higher-than-normal residential solar credits on their tax returns to commence a mass correspondence audit.

One thing about our good buddies at the IRS: they may not be the sharpest tools in the shed. But they do have the benefit of compiling billions of pieces of data from 150 million tax returns and then determining how each of our returns stacks up against everybody else. Their data can zero in on zip code, census tracts and other demographics readily available. If the "average" solar credit where you live is $4,000-$7,500, and you claim $16,000, you might be receiving an audit notice.

And we should not forget the Section 6662 accuracy-related penalty at 20% of the understated tax, plus interest from April 15 of the original due date.

I found this Q&A on IRS site. Does it mean, Tesla has to tell the customers that the ADDITIONAL cost per sq ft for solar is $31? So only that portion qualifies for 30% tax credit?
Energy Incentives for Individuals: Questions and Answers

Q. For tax years beginning in 2009, the law allows a 30 percent tax credit, with no cap, to a homeowner for the cost, including installation costs, of solar electric equipment (photovoltaic). This credit provides a great incentive to homebuilders and homebuyers to install this equipment. For purposes of this tax credit, does the cost to the homebuyer of the installed solar electric equipment include a builder’s normal construction mark-up?

A. The homebuyer must make a reasonable allocation of the cost of a home to determine the cost allocable to the solar electric equipment on which a homebuyer computes this credit. The cost of the solar electric equipment may include a reasonable allocation of the homebuilder’s construction mark-up. The homebuilder should provide the buyer with information necessary to make this allocation.

 

[SCOOBY]

No it doesn't what?

Defy the laws of physics, which is what you suggested. I really wasn't looking to start an argument, and I don't have the domain expertise you do, but I understood you to have said prevention of back feeding of power to the grid is impossible and I simply said it wasn't.

 

[Ampster]

but I understood you to have said prevention of back feeding of power to the grid is impossible and I simply said it wasn't.

No worries. I am responding more for the benefit of others so they can understand some basics. Let me try to clarfy. Backfeeding when the grid is down is possible but prevented by the safety devices that must exist in the inverter before the utility allows connection. When the grid is up that backfeed actually reduces the incioming current and the wires have less load. The public utilities that use wire and transformer capacity as an excuse to not permit solar are doing their customers and the grid a disservice.

 

[macpacheco]

If you share a transformer with other (non solar) customers the first effect of your self generation is to feed your neighbors directly. Only if a substantial % of customers on a single grid branch have solar you'll actually see juice flowing back towards the substation beyond your immediate surrounding blocks.

Like I said, PW2 is the best way, if you can, don't sell back anything to the grid, just store it.

 

[SCOOBY]

No worries. I am responding more for the benefit of others so they can understand some basics. Let me try to clarfy. Backfeeding when the grid is down is possible but prevented by the safety devices that must exist in the inverter before the utility allows connection. When the grid is up that backfeed actually reduces the incioming current and the wires have less load. The public utilities that use wire and transformer capacity as an excuse to not permit solar are doing their customers and the grid a disservice.

I agree it's bogus if a utility uses wire and transformer capacity as an excuse. But there are valid reasons for a utility to make a charge for network upgrades. For example, my small rural co-op would not connect a solar system until I was upgraded to a smart meter that was capable of measuring power in both directions.