Pennsylvania Solar Roof and Powerwall Canceled

[GregBallantyne]

Why sue or threaten? It was risk and it was very clear it was not a commitment. My house is a ranch with a wing and a porch and it was crazy expensive. The roof product is not a cost effective product. Save your money and buy a great roof and move on with other more economical green energy ideas.

The idea that litigation is required in something like this is a terrible idea IMO. He won’t get a roof, Tesla wastes money, courts waste time with frivolous crap. It hurts the mission.

If the OP had paid any attention at all to this product they would know it was not on track, actual installs were way over original estimates, etc.

My own recent experience, and my cost analysis, turn out differently from your opinion. And if you want a really great roof, Tesla Solar Roof is the only really great choice. It's not the cheapest choice, so I guess it really all depends on your definition of "great". Mine just doesn't weight being the cheapest all that heavily. Performance was my driver.

 

[nativewolf]

Don't get me wrong Greg, if you go into it eyes wide open and know it is not the most cost effective solution and know you need a 3rd party and you are going to pay a premium price for a premium product than I applaud you. It's customers like you that help businesses figure out how to scale. I also am very thankful for you sharing your experiences with all of us, kudos!

I have not installed the solar roof, just crazy expensive and money is very very tight. Sustainable forestry is my business and the last 5 years have been a wipsaw of market crashes and contractions and maybe 30% of the mills in the USA closing and pricing up and down 50% Q to Q. We just couldn't make that commitment. Everything has to cost out for us. We did buy a Ford Lightning to replace one of our diesel pickups which had to get replaced and we couldn't wait 2 more years for a CT. So we've made a baby step but the fuel savings largely offset the costs of the truck. We have a farm and can do a large ground mount install and are trying to standup a commercial sawmill which will have 10 acres of solar and hopefully a megapack (or competitor) to fuel a tesla semi or 2 ( 2024...praying praying). I'm probably going to do a standing seam metal roof and a ground mount solar install.

Sadly I can't even use any tax credits so they are only useful if transferable.

 

[holeydonut]

Why sue or threaten? It was risk and it was very clear it was not a commitment. My house is a ranch with a wing and a porch and it was crazy expensive. The roof product is not a cost effective product. Save your money and buy a great roof and move on with other more economical green energy ideas.

The idea that litigation is required in something like this is a terrible idea IMO. He won’t get a roof, Tesla wastes money, courts waste time with frivolous crap. It hurts the mission.

If the OP had paid any attention at all to this product they would know it was not on track, actual installs were way over original estimates, etc.

Call me old fashioned, but if someone plans 36 months in advance for a roof, and the contractor bails last minute... I feel that contractor should bear some responsibility related to the higher costs/surprise of that cancellation. Tesla shouldn't get a free pass because of their mission. It's not the OP's responsibility to pay attention to Tesla's other solar roof installs.

 

[nativewolf]

Seriously? My prices vary by the day...I spend an hour or more every day just making sure everything is what I think it is. If the OP is doing the general contracting himself (sounds like it) than he damn well should have been on top of every major price point in his build. Lumber falls by 20%, insulation up by 30%, roof up by 300%, driveway up by 50%, etc. If a GC doesn't know what's what and how much they won't be in business long. He's been planning for almost 3 years and in the time prices have been all over the place. Lumber literally went up 300% on most items for 2021-22. I just can't believe anyone could have been surprised by this news. Further, he's lucky in that he can't put on a nice metal roof and buy green power somewhere else. Put the roof cost savings into tesla stock. In 10 years he'll be way way ahead.

 

[Will792]

I think you are a bit out of date. Perhaps a few years. Real owners experiences will point that out quickly. I am not the only one....

It is possible but you mention owners experience a few years after installation. Considering that solar roof lifetime is decades it is not a very reliable indicator.

 

[traxila]

All it takes is a look at the complexity of your roof to know why Tesla cancelled. Their original algorithm was base on something like the roof of a ranch house, and suddenly they were roofing McMansions and taking a beating. AHC's quote more likely reflects the actual work they'd need to do with all the angles of your roof. You want a complex design house, you pay for the extra labor required to roof it, that's all.

I offered to pay extra.

They quoted me a price and stuck with it for over two years. Now at crunch time they dump me. After having me sign about ten documents in total. After they filed all the final permit applications. Won’t even give me the materials and let me worry about install.

And AHC did not give a rat’s ass about the complexity of the roof. They priced it based on square footage.

Seems Tesla pulled out of PA in my area completely.

And thanks.

 

[holeydonut]

Seriously? My prices vary by the day...I spend an hour or more every day just making sure everything is what I think it is. If the OP is doing the general contracting himself (sounds like it) than he damn well should have been on top of every major price point in his build. Lumber falls by 20%, insulation up by 30%, roof up by 300%, driveway up by 50%, etc. If a GC doesn't know what's what and how much they won't be in business long. He's been planning for almost 3 years and in the time prices have been all over the place. Lumber literally went up 300% on most items for 2021-22. I just can't believe anyone could have been surprised by this news. Further, he's lucky in that he can't put on a nice metal roof and buy green power somewhere else. Put the roof cost savings into tesla stock. In 10 years he'll be way way ahead.

100% serious. You personally seem attune to construction raw material prices and how they affect your margins. But a homeowner or GC isn't reasonably expected to know at what point supplier margins erode too much.

All the long-lead stuff I've ever done professionally usually includes some clause(s) that describe how certain prices related to key raws and labor will be subject to review over the contract term during the project. And these prices would at least be discussed at some point near the time those materials and labor hours get utilized.

So, I do think the way Tesla kind of "sets and forgets" the pricing on their solar roof is kind of weird. But @traxila had mentioned in his posts that he was willing to work with the installer regarding the price. He prioritized completion of the project. The problem is his installer dropped a "bomb" of sorts with a surprise, instead of working with him to resolve the issue. People usually have an easier time resolving something if they feel like they were involved. Being surprised by the turn of events is 100% on Tesla, since they held the information and knowledge about their costs; they owned their communications about offered prices; and they were aware of possible difficulties with PoCo/AHJ's.

If we remain on topic for someone wanting a solar roof (instead of an alternate ROI rat-hole conversation); there are other products. As @Vines said, GAF, SunTegra, and Luma all purport to have some solar-shingle type offerings. And of course, he could just shingle his roof and add traditional panels later. It makes sense for @traxila to pursue other options ASAP since he isn't going to quickly convince his current contracted vendor to complete their assignment.

And, I am 100% serious that he should save his receipts and should consider consulting with a lawyer to see if there are any expectation or reliance damages that could be recovered later. The best part about lawyers is they don't care about the the Mission/Vision. They just want to make $ to pay for their practice.

 

[GregBallantyne]

Cost is indeed a factor for anyone considering a project like this, but of course it's a bit different depending on individual circumstances. I'll share a bit more detail about the relationship between cost and my own.
I did not borrow to do this, so no interest rate or cost of carrying capital was involved. I haven't figured my financial side of it with any of those influences, but I imagine they could be significant. Tax credits only help if you have or can create sufficient liability, and that took a little effort and planning for me. Fortunately they can be spread across more than just one year, but I'm sure that not everyone will have the flexibility in this area that I do.

So here is the list I've come up with, not a salesman list but my own, based on a combination of reality and estimated projections. All in today's dollars, so I've let performance degradation over time balance future cost increases. Should be a good enough trade. Performance estimates have only been validated by a short time of actual operation, but so far real data is showing they are more accurate than I had hoped. Payback years are based on today's kwh price (16 cents for me), nothing else:

Project full cost: $127,551
Tax credits/rebates: $48,015
Project net cost: $79,536
Payback years: 27
Avoided costs
Backup power sys. $20,000
New roof install. $18,000
New Calc cost: $41,536
New payback years. 14

Pretty hard for anyone considering such a project to credibly characterize the above as "crazy expensive" but without the tax credits/rebates it looks quite different, more than doubles the eventual cost figure. Not sure I would have pulled the trigger without them, didn't have to get into that. As always, each case is a bit different....

 

[holeydonut]

Cost is indeed a factor for anyone considering a project like this, but of course it's a bit different depending on individual circumstances. I'll share a bit more detail about the relationship between cost and my own.
I did not borrow to do this, so no interest rate or cost of carrying capital was involved. I haven't figured my financial side of it with any of those influences, but I imagine they could be significant. Tax credits only help if you have or can create sufficient liability, and that took a little effort and planning for me. Fortunately they can be spread across more than just one year, but I'm sure that not everyone will have the flexibility in this area that I do.

So here is the list I've come up with, not a salesman list but my own, based on a combination of reality and estimated projections. All in today's dollars, so I've let performance degradation over time balance future cost increases. Should be a good enough trade. Performance estimates have only been validated by a short time of actual operation, but so far real data is showing they are more accurate than I had hoped. Payback years are based on today's kwh price (16 cents for me), nothing else:

Project full cost: $127,551
Tax credits/rebates: $48,015
Project net cost: $79,536
Payback years: 27
Avoided costs
Backup power sys. $20,000
New roof install. $18,000
New Calc cost: $41,536
New payback years. 14

Pretty hard for anyone considering such a project to credibly characterize the above as "crazy expensive" but without the tax credits/rebates it looks quite different, more than doubles the eventual cost figure. Not sure I would have pulled the trigger without them, didn't have to get into that. As always, each case is a bit different....

Thanks for sharing Greg! By the way how did you get 37% tax credits/rebates on your solar roof? Did you get federal 30% and State 7%?

 

[GregBallantyne]

Thanks for sharing Greg! By the way how did you get 37% tax credits/rebates on your solar roof? Did you get federal 30% and State 7%?

Maryland has a battery storage tax credit/rebate program - I don't remember the percentage (maybe 30% but don't quote me), but has a $$ cap at $5k. And I also included a federal amount for a heat pump water heater. The water heater also makes a noticeable difference in overall performance due to decreased demand. Maybe I should have also included the cost of the water heater.... might have missed that. The total put me over my tax liability for 2022 taxes, so I was unable to realize every bit of it, but got quite close. I took the solar roof part last year, and I'll be taking the battery portion against 2023 taxes. I pulled these numbers together fairly quickly this morning, and I am certain there are some inaccuracies along the lines of those kind of things. The project is big enough that it gets a little complicated. AHC does other things besides solar, and my overall contract inluded house exterior redo including windows and doors. Some of that actually is applicable to the solar roof tax credit, since the work was required for solar roof, so that adds a little more complexity to figuring things out. I'd have to look at it all better to really come up with the right numbers..... but those I posted are at least quite representative.

 

[holeydonut]

Maryland has a battery storage tax credit/rebate program - I don't remember the percentage (maybe 30% but don't quote me), but has a $$ cap at $5k. And I also included a federal amount for a heat pump water heater. The water heater also makes a noticeable difference in overall performance due to decreased demand. Maybe I should have also included the cost of the water heater.... might have missed that. The total put me over my tax liability for 2022 taxes, so I was unable to realize every bit of it, but got quite close. I took the solar roof part last year, and I'll be taking the battery portion against 2023 taxes. I pulled these numbers together fairly quickly this morning, and I am certain there are some inaccuracies along the lines of those kind of things. The project is big enough that it gets a little complicated. AHC does other things besides solar, and my overall contract inluded house exterior redo including windows and doors. Some of that actually is applicable to the solar roof tax credit, since the work was required for solar roof, so that adds a little more complexity to figuring things out. I'd have to look at it all better to really come up with the right numbers..... but those I posted are at least quite representative.

Got it, thanks for the extra context.

I think it's interesting your tax person is ok taking the full cost of the Tesla Solar roof (and other modifications required for that solar roof) and applying the 30% ITC against that subtotal.

In other threads about the solar roof, some tax folks were only applying the ITC against the portion of the solar roof that was actually generating energy (the specific solar tiles). So in an example math-world... if the entire solar roof were $75,000; but only $40,000 was the cost of the actual ties generating energy... the ITC would only apply 30% against the $40,000.

 

[GregBallantyne]

Got it, thanks for the extra context.

I think it's interesting your tax person is ok taking the full cost of the Tesla Solar roof (and other modifications required for that solar roof) and applying the 30% ITC against that subtotal.

In other threads about the solar roof, some tax folks were only applying the ITC against the portion of the solar roof that was actually generating energy (the specific solar tiles). So in an example math-world... if the entire solar roof were $75,000; but only $40,000 was the cost of the actual ties generating energy... the ITC would only apply 30% against the $40,000.

Well, my tax person is me. However, everything I've read with regard to the IRA as well as the IRA itself states that any work required to install the solar generation equipment is eligible for the tax credit. Perhaps the new law is different in that regard? I don't know. Anyhow, it turns out the Tesla Solar Roof ends up requiring a little more than other installations, like the rain gutters. If panels were put on an existing roof, new gutters wouldn't be eligible. Structural mods required for additional loads are. I had a little of that too.
The more interesting thing I found while doing my taxes was that while I was prepared to provide all the evidence, all the forms require is the input of numbers. Since my strategy for creating sufficient liability while minimizing my pre-tax asset hit also involved minimizing my withholding, I fully expected a little attention from the IRS. I got everything withheld back, which was less than half the liability, while income was somewhat substantial. My refund was processed by mid March, even tho I had to wait to file for some investment income numbers from overseas and didn't file until late Feb.
I've still got all the evidence, and have confidence in what I've done should some question appear.... but that part was a bit of a surprise. I just filled in some numbers, total cost - no backup or additional info.

 

[holeydonut]

Well, my tax person is me. However, everything I've read with regard to the IRA as well as the IRA itself states that any work required to install the solar generation equipment is eligible for the tax credit. Perhaps the new law is different in that regard? I don't know. Anyhow, it turns out the Tesla Solar Roof ends up requiring a little more than other installations, like the rain gutters. If panels were put on an existing roof, new gutters wouldn't be eligible. Structural mods required for additional loads are. I had a little of that too.
The more interesting thing I found while doing my taxes was that while I was prepared to provide all the evidence, all the forms require is the input of numbers. Since my strategy for creating sufficient liability while minimizing my pre-tax asset hit also involved minimizing my withholding, I fully expected a little attention from the IRS. I got everything withheld back, which was less than half the liability, while income was somewhat substantial. My refund was processed by mid March, even tho I had to wait to file for some investment income numbers from overseas and didn't file until late Feb.
I've still got all the evidence, and have confidence in what I've done should some question appear.... but that part was a bit of a surprise. I just filled in some numbers, total cost - no backup or additional info.

Yeah I can't make heads or tails about the IRA as it pertains to the clean energy stuff. I tried to understand how there could be savings for home energy efficiency upgrades, but it's a gigantic mess .

Personally, I think as long as you can represent that the entire "Tesla Solar Roof" is a single product; and that product itself is a clean energy product per the tax rules, then the entirety of the Tesla Solar Roof is eligible for the full 30%.

But if the Tesla invoice expressly splits out the "Solar Gen" part separately from other roof materials (eg underlayment, decking, gutters) then it'd be a tougher sell to claim the full thing for the federal 30%.

 

[GregBallantyne]

Yeah I can't make heads or tails about the IRA as it pertains to the clean energy stuff. I tried to understand how there could be savings for home energy efficiency upgrades, but it's a gigantic mess .

Personally, I think as long as you can represent that the entire "Tesla Solar Roof" is a single product; and that product itself is a clean energy product per the tax rules, then the entirety of the Tesla Solar Roof is eligible for the full 30%.

But if the Tesla invoice expressly splits out the "Solar Gen" part separately from other roof materials (eg underlayment, decking, gutters) then it'd be a tougher sell to claim the full thing for the federal 30%.

The home energy efficiency upgrade part is two part - federal money for states to set up the programs for those who fit the income eligibility parameters for imediate rebates, and those who do not get tax credits at the federal level like the other stuff. The eligibility of all work required to intall the solar generation/storage is pretty clear - I'm not looking at it now, but it wasn't that long ago that I did. My invoice isn't a Tesla invoice, as my contract was with AHC, who also advised me of the same eligibility limits - of course with the caveat that my taxes were my own responsibility.
So I have high confidence in my understanding of it all.

 

[FurryOne]

...And AHC did not give a rat’s ass about the complexity of the roof. They priced it based on square footage.

And thanks.

AHC certainly did give a damn about the complexity, but they've already averaged out their ratio of complex to simple installs that will keep them out of the red, so they might eat some profit on your roof, but make it up on someone else's. Yes, it sucks that Tesla didn't do more research before they started making quotes and their mistake unfortunately screwed you.

 

[Zer0t]

@GregBallantyne thanks for all the great information. I may do roof instead of panels even though my house is fairly new I cannot get many panels on based on the roof design. How many square ft of roofing was the total? My total usage is a bit less than yours but if I can get 14 kW and 3 PW for around 100k instead of panels I would be pleased.

 

[trautmane2]

I don't want to rehash the tax debate in this thread, but I disagree with @GregBallantyne that:

The eligibility of all work required to intall the solar generation/storage is pretty clear

You can find more discussion about that in these threads if you are interested:

New Solar Roof owners - how much can we write off in taxes?

Master Thread: Energy products and Tax discussions

 

[holeydonut]

I don't want to rehash the tax debate in this thread, but I disagree with @GregBallantyne that:



You can find more discussion about that in these threads if you are interested:

New Solar Roof owners - how much can we write off in taxes?

Master Thread: Energy products and Tax discussions

Since he's his own tax accountant... maybe he should avoid clicking those so he can maintain plausible deniability. He could still get wrecked during an audit, but at least it'd be an "accident" heh.

 

[jjrandorin]

Since he's his own tax accountant... maybe he should avoid clicking those so he can maintain plausible deniability. He could still get wrecked during an audit, but at least it'd be an "accident" heh.

Be that as it may, those threads are where the tax discussion goes, so any other posts on that topic in this thread will be moved to the stickied master tax
thread linked by @trautmane2 thats at the top of this subforum.

 

[GregBallantyne]

@GregBallantyne thanks for all the great information. I may do roof instead of panels even though my house is fairly new I cannot get many panels on based on the roof design. How many square ft of roofing was the total? My total usage is a bit less than yours but if I can get 14 kW and 3 PW for around 100k instead of panels I would be pleased.

Not certain about total roof footage.... but approx 1200 sq ft rancher, with simple gable roof and standard roof pitch. 5/12 maybe? I've got two skylights on one side. Fit 17.2 kw on it, the fellow running the actual install said it was about maxed out. I'd suggest trying to get 15.2 kw or a bit more out if it if you can, you'll end up with two 7.6 capacity inverters, and you may as well max them out. You should be able to achieve under $100k after tax credits as well, if your roof is similar size/complexity.
Don't worry about figuring the credits. Despite those thinking I'm a little crazy, the truth is I'm just a reasonably intelligent fellow who can figure things out for himself. It's not that hard. And the installation expenses I included are legal, but were a relatively small part of the total and don't swings things that much. After credits, my cost was just a bit less than $90k.
And I'm really impressed with the result. A maintenance free roof that really performs! Good luck with your project!