Tesla "logs" vs reality... potential problem?

[bcsteeve]

While making a call to Telsa this morning, I couldn't help recalling several incidents where a driver's account differed from Tesla's (here's one example). Generally, it seems, whatever Tesla says happened is taken as the truth. And I believed that too... until this morning's call.

I was sitting in my car with the head unit complaining that two of my tires' pressure were low. What was odd is that all four tires were indicating 42psi on the screen, but the two front ones were in orange and the alert at the bottom was on constantly. I didn't really know what to do because how can I correct a problem when it is reporting that there is, but isn't, an issue? So I called Tesla. The representative assured me there was nothing wrong and nothing in the logs to indicate a problem and there was no indication from the car's tire pressure sensors that anything was wrong. Huh? Yes, I tell her, in fact there is an indication because there is - clear as day - an alert telling me there's a problem and two indicators telling me they are low, but at the correct PSI.

She had no answer for me other than to say I should get it checked at my next service.

And that's fine... my issue here isn't that the car has a hiccup. My issue here is that obviously there is a disconnect between what is actually going on in our cars and what Tesla's "logs" say. Yet, when something serious happens, the logs are what the media, certainly, and the law, perhaps?, use to confirm what the truth was. But what about when the "truth" lies?

 

[mongo]

While making a call to Telsa this morning, I couldn't help recalling several incidents where a driver's account differed from Tesla's (here's one example). Generally, it seems, whatever Tesla says happened is taken as the truth. And I believed that too... until this morning's call.

I was sitting in my car with the head unit complaining that two of my tires' pressure were low. What was odd is that all four tires were indicating 42psi on the screen, but the two front ones were in orange and the alert at the bottom was on constantly. I didn't really know what to do because how can I correct a problem when it is reporting that there is, but isn't, an issue? So I called Tesla. The representative assured me there was nothing wrong and nothing in the logs to indicate a problem and there was no indication from the car's tire pressure sensors that anything was wrong. Huh? Yes, I tell her, in fact there is an indication because there is - clear as day - an alert telling me there's a problem and two indicators telling me they are low, but at the correct PSI.

She had no answer for me other than to say I should get it checked at my next service.

And that's fine... my issue here isn't that the car has a hiccup. My issue here is that obviously there is a disconnect between what is actually going on in our cars and what Tesla's "logs" say. Yet, when something serious happens, the logs are what the media, certainly, and the law, perhaps?, use to confirm what the truth was. But what about when the "truth" lies?

Depends on where in the chain the issue is

TMPS reports something
System logs something
User interface displays something

In my imagination, the vehicle would log the raw data, which is also what Tesla reads.
In this case, it seems the problem is with the user interface code, especially since it is displaying conflicting data (orange and good pressure should come from the same data value).

So possibly:
Tires are good
logging is accurate
Display is wonky

Did you try a reset or vehicle off to attempt clearing the issue?

 

[mongo]

While making a call to Telsa this morning, I couldn't help recalling several incidents where a driver's account differed from Tesla's (here's one example). Generally, it seems, whatever Tesla says happened is taken as the truth. And I believed that too... until this morning's call.

I was sitting in my car with the head unit complaining that two of my tires' pressure were low. What was odd is that all four tires were indicating 42psi on the screen, but the two front ones were in orange and the alert at the bottom was on constantly. I didn't really know what to do because how can I correct a problem when it is reporting that there is, but isn't, an issue? So I called Tesla. The representative assured me there was nothing wrong and nothing in the logs to indicate a problem and there was no indication from the car's tire pressure sensors that anything was wrong. Huh? Yes, I tell her, in fact there is an indication because there is - clear as day - an alert telling me there's a problem and two indicators telling me they are low, but at the correct PSI.

She had no answer for me other than to say I should get it checked at my next service.

And that's fine... my issue here isn't that the car has a hiccup. My issue here is that obviously there is a disconnect between what is actually going on in our cars and what Tesla's "logs" say. Yet, when something serious happens, the logs are what the media, certainly, and the law, perhaps?, use to confirm what the truth was. But what about when the "truth" lies?

It sounds like what would be handy (but potentially a software nightmare), would be the ability to view remotely what the display is actually showing, or at a lessor level, the internal values it is using to form its opinion of the world.

 

[lunitiks]

Interesting topic. Subbed

 

[GaryREM]

I don't know what the trigger is for low pressure is on your car.

But I had low pressure alarm trigger on left from tire. It was lower than others by 1psi. As I drove, the tire pressure came up a couple of psi on all tires but the alarm did not clear. There seems to be some delay in clearing the alarms.

Good observation, but not sure this particular case is a solid example.

 

[bcsteeve]

Did you try a reset or vehicle off to attempt clearing the issue?

I did. I reset both displays and I also reset the TPMS sensors (despite the warning that the reset shouldn't be used to clear errors). None of that worked. However, I think I just resolved things. I decided to increase all four tires to 44 psi (on the phone she said "between 42 and 45") and after doing one of the rear tires (which wasn't a "problem" on the display), the front right one changed from orange to normal... however it still showed the same 42 psi. I put all four tires to 44 and they correctly reflected that on the display. As soon as I started to drive, both fronts were orange again. While driving around the block, about 4 minutes later that same right front one went normal and then a minute later so did the front left and the warning went away. So far the alert has stayed off, but its only been a few minutes so who knows.

 

[bcsteeve]

Perhaps I should also note that the warning was at one time correct. A couple of days ago the temperature dropped significantly and my pressures were 38 psi in the front and 39 in the back. The two front ones were complaining. So I figured 38 was the threshold. I topped up to 42 all round and it didn't clear for 2 days so that's why I called them this morning.

 

[ABC2D]

Did you try a reset or vehicle off to attempt clearing the issue?

I think you're missing the point - the question raised is not about tires, or errors. The concern is (OP, please correct me if I'm wrong) - how accurate and reliable is the logging mechanism.

Very interesting and I've thought about that a lot too. For example, all those unintended acceleration cases - "according to Tesla logs", it is clear that driver pressed the gas pedal - what if that log data is wrong? What if the actual malfunction is misapplication of the force applied to brake to the accelerator pedal instead - then logging it as such? (of course this is a very outlandish example, but just to demonstrate)

 

[bcsteeve]

I also want to say that this isn't my first personal experience that indicates Tesla's logs and reality don't mesh.

When I first got the car, I had two separate incidents on the same day where a proximity alarm alerted like I was about to hit something... but nothing was there. I was driving straight on a clear open road with no objects, cars, people, etc. I called in and they said they looked through the logs and there was no indication anything had happened. OK, perhaps their logs aren't that detailed. But I guess my point is that if the guy in that link I provided said he never hit the pedal and Tesla says he did... the guy was there, Tesla was not. Their logs indicate the throttle position sensor went to 100%, but that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't a glitch in the sensor or other. Yet the media reports and we all believe it was that guy's fault. I did too, until i start to see my own car's weird behaviors and an apparent disagreement between reality and logs.

 

[bcsteeve]

(OP, please correct me if I'm wrong)

You're not wrong. You got my point exactly.

 

[GaryREM]

Let's not confuse things.

The car appears to have a low pressure alarm that goes off at say 38 psi but will not reset until the pressure is at 42+ psi. The normal inflation should be around 45 psi.

So, not sure there is any issue here.

 

[ABC2D]

So, not sure there is any issue here

I think the issue is - the IC had an error displayed while Tesla saying "no errors". The fact that the error was about tire pressure is insignificant and irrelevant, what significant is that Tesla did not see the error clearly displayed on the car.

 

[bcsteeve]

Then you're not understanding, GaryRem. First off, the door jams say proper inflation is 42psi, not 45. If 38 is "low", then that's fine, but then when inflated to 42 it shouldn't continue showing low. In fact it continued showing low until 44, but I'm not sure the value actually mattered. I doubt you could recreate this by simply retracing my steps.

HOWEVER, that again has nothing really to do with my main point... which is to say that Tesla Mothership says what I saw never happened. Their logs indicate "all good" and in fact she told me straight out that there is no current alert about low pressure, nor had there been for the past couple of days. But there was (first accurately and later inaccurately).

The logs are supposed to be the evidence Tesla continually refers to when something bad happens and they say it wasn't their fault. OK, sure, this is just tire pressure. But I *have* to now doubt that the "logs" really showed (accurately) that Mr. so and so pressed the accelerator pedal or that Mr. Brown's car didn't malfunction when it hit the semi causing his death.

 

[mongo]

I did. I reset both displays and I also reset the TPMS sensors (despite the warning that the reset shouldn't be used to clear errors). None of that worked. However, I think I just resolved things. I decided to increase all four tires to 44 psi (on the phone she said "between 42 and 45") and after doing one of the rear tires (which wasn't a "problem" on the display), the front right one changed from orange to normal... however it still showed the same 42 psi. I put all four tires to 44 and they correctly reflected that on the display. As soon as I started to drive, both fronts were orange again. While driving around the block, about 4 minutes later that same right front one went normal and then a minute later so did the front left and the warning went away. So far the alert has stayed off, but its only been a few minutes so who knows.

The way many TPS system work is that they do not transmit/ update when the wheel is stationary. This is done to extend the battery life. Once they sense rotation above a certain speed, they will broadcast every X number of seconds. They will also transmit in the event of a large pressure increase or decrease (such as when filling the tires or when there is a sudden leak).
So the reported pressure may have been the most recent data, but the orange tire required some number of samples before it would clear. These did not occur until after driving or filling more.

 

[ABC2D]

 

[mongo]

I think you're missing the point - the question raised is not about tires, or errors. The concern is (OP, please correct me if I'm wrong) - how accurate and reliable is the logging mechanism.

Very interesting and I've thought about that a lot too. For example, all those unintended acceleration cases - "according to Tesla logs", it is clear that driver pressed the gas pedal - what if that log data is wrong? What if the actual malfunction is misapplication of the force applied to brake to the accelerator pedal instead - then logging it as such? (of course this is a very outlandish example, but just to demonstrate)

I understand the point, and was trying to isolate the issue to a specific link in the chain. If the display did not show the error after a reset, then it may have been the cause of the inconsistency.

Regarding accelerator input, that is provided by a dual reverse slope analog inputs. If Tesla is logging both inputs it is hard to imagine a case where the data would show correct pedal operation without the pedal being pressed. If it logs the interpreted data only, then it is less unlikely, but it is still very QCed code.

 

[bcsteeve]

but it is still very QCed code.

You're on the team that oversees that, are you?

 

[mongo]

Then you're not understanding, GaryRem. First off, the door jams say proper inflation is 42psi, not 45. If 38 is "low", then that's fine, but then when inflated to 42 it shouldn't continue showing low. In fact it continued showing low until 44, but I'm not sure the value actually mattered. I doubt you could recreate this by simply retracing my steps.

The TPMS does not transmit continuously. Inflating the tire may have caused it to transmit due to the change in pressure. Or the display is adding hysteresis to the warning flag.

HOWEVER, that again has nothing really to do with my main point... which is to say that Tesla Mothership says what I saw never happened. Their logs indicate "all good" and in fact she told me straight out that there is no current alert about low pressure, nor had there been for the past couple of days. But there was (first accurately and later inaccurately).

If the logs are not updated while the car is off, but the TPMS is still monitored, the internal computer could set a warning which needs a certain number of samples to clear without that pressure being logged. When Tesla looked at the car, they saw the same 42 psi you did, which isn't an error. However, it sounds like they could not see the processed warning state.

 

[mongo]

You're on the team that oversees that, are you?

???
Are you wanting to have a discussion regarding SW, TPMS, and interactions, or just to vent?
No, I am not on the team.
Yes, it is a guess of mine that Tesla would put due care into verifying that the only thing preventing their cars from moving is well implemented. However, I think it is a reasonable one.

 

[bcsteeve]

Certainly reasonable... but the whole point here is questioning if it is factual.